Starfire without WP's?

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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 14 Jul 2012 05:23

I like the idea of reducing the amount of prime real estate. Maybe not to 1 hab per 40 systems, but below current levels. One way would be to use hf's and narrow the hd range where you can emplace a substantial population along with limit the chance of finding nprs.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby procyon on Sat 14 Jul 2012 05:41

I just have made custom sys gen charts that rarely give habs, and then alter the listed orbits or planet types to get it where I want it.

It wouldn't be hard if you are pre gen'ing the universe to set the hab to system ratio that you want.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sat 14 Jul 2012 06:17

I'll look into that once I get the SSF cd. The only campaign rules I have left is my old copy of New Empires.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby Glaive7 on Sun 15 Jul 2012 09:50

Bigger names than me have chimed in here, but I'd like to still offer that a zenith/nadir still may offer a solution. True most systems have more WP than two anyway, but they can defend them better since the exact point of entry is known. I would have the zenith/nadir entrance be random direction and distance from the actual zenith/nadir point but basically in formation (no scattering), and far enough that fixed defenses would be of limited use, but close enough that mobile forces near the point of entry would be able to come to general quarters and attack at fairly close range. Also if played on a hex map instead of through WPs only, and by using maybe say the StMP as the jump distance in hexes, it would be possible to jump past any heavily defended systems to attack weaker systems. This would in turn force the defenders fleets to spread out more (thus solving the problem of concentrated fleets) to offer more protection to inner systems. I wouldn't use much of a reaction move system, but fleets could use their StMP to patrol systems (by themselves jumping) and thus maybe intercept an incoming fleet, but then risking not being at the closer system when an attack comes there. The game would be one of feints and cat and mouse like moves, while trying to outguess your opponent. Also treaties between races could allow for a buffer zone of hexes that would in turn offer either side more protection and saber rattling options (as one race moves into the neutral zone to provoke an attack or to place settlers and thus claiming that system.)

Would the game be different, certainly, but isn't diversity of options part of what makes Starfire so interesting? I'm not saying that we should abandon our current paths, but instead look at this idea as more like Admirals Challenge, in which some things are radically different, but the basic combat structure and economic structures remain the same.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Sun 15 Jul 2012 11:43

The problem with wp defense at higher levels isn't the fleet size per se. It's the limit on the number of ships that can transit a wp each turn. With a 6 ship limit the leading waves of an assault get toasted. SBMHAWKs help somewhat but only if you know what is on the other side.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby Glaive7 on Mon 16 Jul 2012 02:22

What if your whole fleet jumps in at the same time? Wouldn't that address the problem of the first few ships getting toasted? The inbound ships could still suffer from sensor and targeting disorientation, but they would be general quarters, while the defending fleet would have to get the rest of their fleet to general quarters (assuming a fraction being at general quarters at any given time). :)

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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby AlexeiTimoshenko on Mon 16 Jul 2012 03:45

Not sure about SSF but in 3rd wps had size limits. Even the largest of wps allows about 3000 HS of ships to enter per turn. For practical purposes until extreme tech levels the effective limit on single transits is 1200 HS. Most historic races short of the Arachnids didn't like the risks of collisions with simultaneous transits and until HT-9 where you get SBMHAWKs assaulting a heavily defended wp is costly.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 16 Jul 2012 04:40

How about a little of the old, a little of the new, and a touch of Babylon 5. Have jump points ala Solar/Ultra/GSF/3rd. But have technology around 22 or 27 where you could have gateships, a gateship has most of its tonnage used as a gate, that amount of spaces dedicated as a gate would allow for 2.0 times that amount of spaces to jump to either the Nadir or Zenith jump area (Gater's choice) where it and the remainder of the spaces in vessels arrives at a randomly determined spot out to 150 hexes from the true Nadir/Zenith of the system. Better tech would raise the amount of spaces of gateable vessels; from 2.0, to 2.4, to 2.8, to 3.2, to 3.6, to 4.0, and finally out to 4.5 x the gates size at TL 50. Each gate vessel rolls randomly for where it jumps in so the gate ships and their gated wingmen will be spread out from other gate ships/wingmen. Well usually at least). Or you could design a vessel have just enough space dedicated so that its gate is half the size of the ship at the starting level and the rest is warship, wont be much warship, but its self contained. or have a large vessel with just a few Q, I, and a Gate and have have a smaller true warship gate with it. By T.L. 43 [sounds like a good place to put the 4.0 gate multiplier], a DNm (170 spaces) could have a 47.5 space Gate and be just it's own gate vessel or it could have a 140 space gate and could gate itself and 350 spaces of vessels to one of the 2 gate zones, while 15 of its sister ships might be doing the same thing, they would all randomly roll for Nadir or Zenith (or both if the wanted to) entry points with the gated vessels arriving in the same hex as it, the gateships facing would be random but all other vessels would be facing whaterver facing the were in relation to the gateing vessel (Ie if the 2nd gated vessel gated at 60 % left of the gateships facing. once we found the gateships facing, the 2nd vessels facing would still be 60 to left (1 hex turn left) of its new facing in the gated in system.

Even at lower levels - A 545 space LNi could have a 500 space gate could gate 2.4 times its spaces, and it and 655 more spaces of vessels could gate in. I propose that non-gate equiped ships would need a 1 space Gate transponder to allow them to be taken with a gate equipped vessel. Fighters in bays wouldn't need them, vessels in transit racks still would.

An expensive Gate DataLink might be allowed that could get 2 or 3 different gate ships to jump together , they would arrive in a tight pattern 1 hex away from each other with each of their gated vessels still arriving in the same hex as the its gateship.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby Vandervecken on Mon 16 Jul 2012 04:57

If ya want to get rid of W.P.s - just make Gate '2.0 x spaces' available at T.L. 2 and probably add gate '5.0 x spaces' at end. Stretching the rest to fairly equally fill the T.L. spectrum. I made no codes or tables because I just thought this one up at work and I am busy tonight, same goes for cost of gate-maker ships system, transponder, and Gate-Link.
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Re: Starfire without WP's?

Postby tmul4050 on Mon 16 Jul 2012 05:18

I have to admit a 200 ship a side is an epic experience (I have only fought the one: and I lost :( ) but a 1000 ship a side boggles my mind :shock: . (Pick up dice, roll to infinity)
Maybe a quick play system could be devised. An example of this is the federation and empire system. This would mean working out a system of cambat factors and so on, but it should be possible. But I think such a system should be used for truly large battles.
Of course on second thoughts you might lose what makes playing the game great. :? Still maybe another option could be used.
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