NPR GENERATOR (Spreadsheet)

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Re: WANTED

Postby Starfire on Wed 13 Feb 2019 22:13

I will answer here but I do agree we should move this to the Solar Forum. Maybe Matt can use move the whole thread.

Leave room to add optional rules but for now they are less important. Long term, yes to optional rules.

Your requirements look spot on.

Q3. In a previous post you mentions HEL and LEL, and since I have not read more than first page, yet, do we want to set up a separate process for each, an HEL process, results in HEL civilization defined on output, and an LEL process that does the same?


Interesting question. I must admit that I am far more interested in HEL generation. Not sure I have an answer for you on this one.

Q4. You also mention a "very specific format that others could use as a copy/paste". Has the format been defined? Do you know ( I am sure you do, I don't, yet ) what needs to be in that?


Actually, I do not. At least not without a detailed review of the rules.

Q5. Are we in need of 'hiding' things, for an NPR generator? I get the impression, that is not case, for this one function.


Anything that might need to be hidden would be tables, but no, I am unconcerned about hiding things at this moment. Once we get close to release, Matt and I will review to see if we have any concerns.

Let me ask you this question, if you could have this process do anything you want, related to NPRs, what do you want it to do. Dream big and don't put limits on what can be done. I will be glad to attempt it. We will need to discuss, but, I think it is best to start from the Dream and then move towards final product, in many iterations, as Xveers and Lomm have said in how they developed their spread sheet.


So, there are 2 possibilities here.
One: pure random generation as per the game rules. This would be used in "competitive multi-player games".

Two: some sort of directed generation. I.e. a space-master wants a J'Rill race to use in their story-line campaign. How exactly this might occur, while still following all the generation rules, is a bit murky to me at the moment but I can definitely see some space-masters desiring this.

PS: Space-Masters, chime in here one way or another. Or with other ideas!
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Re: WANTED

Postby Cralis on Thu 14 Feb 2019 00:58

Since you mentioned it in the first post, I figured you were trying for both Ultra and Solar Starfire versions. But I can move this to the Solar Starfire forum if you prefer.
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Re: WANTED

Postby drtetrode on Mon 25 Feb 2019 13:51

Hello,

No, I did not drop off the earth. Vacation came up and we went. Lovely this time of year, in Fl. Have not had much time to work on this. Driving back, tommorow. Colorado is a long cold way away. :D

Question 1. Do you, would you send me the method you use for randdom number generation in excel, that is seeded. I have been doing some reseach, an I have not found, a simple methog. I think I have found 2 or 3 possibles, but, if you have one, that we can understand, that would probably be better.

Scott ;-)
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Re: WANTED

Postby krenshala on Tue 05 Mar 2019 12:14

There is the function RANDBETWEEN().

=RANDBETWEEN(lower,upper)

The only problem I can think of with using this is that I believe it will generate a random number every time the cell gets evaluated for display, which means every time you tell it to run the formulae on the page, or ever time you (re)load it. This may not be a problem, depending on how you are using it in the spreadsheet, however.
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Re: WANTED

Postby drtetrode on Tue 05 Mar 2019 19:46

krenshela,

Thanks, that works in Excel, but, as you say, there is the recalculate issue. The other issue is that we need to repeat the process, of genertion, exactly the same, for you and for me for a given seed number. I have found that we can not govern the seed in Excel, using their functions. So, I have found 2 different methods to generate a seeded pseudo-random number sequece. One is a Linear Congruent Generator, the other is of similar makeup. Marvin had mentioned that he had a method he uses, and I was hoping that he would send that to me so I can see, and probably use it, since it is well understood.

I am about ready to start. I have read chapter Y, on NPR generation. I now have many questions. So, here goes.

1. What approach would support the SM the most? A spreadsheet that assumes it is being used at the beginning of universe creation? Or, a spreadsheet that asks how many turns have occured since the game began. This affects the NPRs starting finances.

Keep in mind, my approach is to start simple and work my way up with multiple iterations to what the final will be.

2. Am I to assume that this spreadsheet will determine if there is any NPR on system body? and has to be run for each system body, or do we want to ask the user to enter all system bodies, like when a new system is reached? It will have to iterate over multiple bodies to handle that situationl OR am I to assume the SM has decided that there is an NPR, and is using the spreadsheet to set them up?

3. For the first iteration, I am going to assume the HEL will be fleshed out. If the spreadsheet is to determine the existence of an NPR, I will do that, if it is other than an HEL, I will simply output which type of LEL, and end. Will this work? What do other SMs think?

With these questions answered and a pseuod-random number generator chosen, I will begin. Looking forward to working with you guys.

Scott ;-)
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Re: WANTED

Postby Starfire on Thu 07 Mar 2019 21:18

Sorry about the delay answering. Computer was in the shop and then a family mini-emergency.

This is the random function I used

MOD(48271*AE3,2^31-1) where AE3 contains the "ORIGINAL" SEED NUMBER.

MOD(48271*AE4,2^31-1) where AE4 contains the answer from the first seed formula.

MOD(48271*AE4,2^31-1) where AE5 contains the answer from the second seed formula.

.... and so on ....

Answers to your questions

A1) NPR never start at the beginning of the game. They are always based on two things - WHO found the NPR (the income is used to determine many starting parts of the NPRs economy (unless Matt changed things a lot). And WHEN the NPR is found. Thus, the answer is the this generator should generate a SINGLE NPR at a time and it is based on who and when it is found -Numbers entered along with the RANDOM SEED.

A2) Because of the answers to the above question, you can see that a Universe Generator may be able to determine that a LEL or HEL exists in the system but can not (due to who and when issues) determine anything more than that). It is possible for it to do some of the early steps, like HEL 2 levels higher than the player (another possible entry that the SM may wish to add or he may want that randomized).

3) That is fine. LEL are really easy to create since they are single planet.
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Re: WANTED

Postby drtetrode on Thu 07 Mar 2019 21:46

Thank you, I will be using that approach for the random number generation.

Next, from you answers, we want to have an NPR generator that gets called / run when a player race finds a new system. This will entail some data entry for the player race.

1. Turns since beginning
2. For the output, ask who the discovering race is

Next questions, related.

Do we want the player to enter all of the system bodies? Then application will then check for an NPR, and then place a population on them? In other words, how does the application know the system 'terrain'.

I don't want to go down the multi-NPR path, yet.

OR

Am I to assume the chance for the existence of a NPR is predetermined? The player has decided there is an NPR and now runs application to see what kind? And again, how does the application know the 'terrain'?

Thanks for answering, I will have a lot more questions on section Y as I go along. This is just trying to figure out what is known, what needs to be known, before starting.

Hope everyone is well, and glad to hear the computer is back up and running.

Scott ;-)
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NPR Generator

Postby Starfire on Sat 09 Mar 2019 10:02

drtetrode wrote:Next, from you answers, we want to have an NPR generator that gets called / run when a player race finds a new system. This will entail some data entry for the player race.

1. Turns since beginning
2. For the output, ask who the discovering race is

Next questions, related.

Do we want the player to enter all of the system bodies? Then application will then check for an NPR, and then place a population on them? In other words, how does the application know the system 'terrain'.

I don't want to go down the multi-NPR path, yet.

OR

Am I to assume the chance for the existence of a NPR is predetermined? The player has decided there is an NPR and now runs application to see what kind? And again, how does the application know the 'terrain'?

Thanks for answering, I will have a lot more questions on section Y as I go along. This is just trying to figure out what is known, what needs to be known, before starting.

Hope everyone is well, and glad to hear the computer is back up and running.

Scott ;-)


I am not sure that I am qualified to answer this question at this time. I have created another thread that points here to get opinions from others.

ISSUES:
1) It has been a while since Marvin looked at the NPRs generation rules.
2) I really do not want SMs to have to enter the entire system into the tool in order to get what they need. However, it might be necessary.

See next post for a few thoughts.
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Re: WANTED

Postby Starfire on Sat 09 Mar 2019 18:36

I am looking through the NPR generation steps to see what is absolutely needed to be know by the NPR generation spreadsheet.

Table Y1.02 Chance of NPR
Type of NPR can be entered or randomly determined. Just depends on whether system generation (assuming a program here) does this step or not.

Hmm, having a discussion with SD studio on what some of these table notes mean.
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Re: NPR GENERATOR (Spreadsheet)

Postby drtetrode on Wed 13 Mar 2019 18:22

Hello all,

I have an Excel spreadsheet, in very 'rough' draft, but, I would like to test the Random number generation piece.

Could I ask that people PM me with an email address and I will send the file to you? or email me at sutherland.scott at gmail.com with subject line of "STARFIRE".

If you do this, please open the spreadsheet and place 14 in the seed field, and go to cell E:506 on the 'Randoms' sheet, and post the number you find there, along with the Version of Excel you are using.

I have the same number from Office 365 Excel and Excel 2016. This is after 500 iterations of the pseudo-random number generator.

This will let me know I have a consistent Pseudo-Random number generator across versions of Excel.

If this is not a good process, please let me know how we can test.

This post can be deleted if it is against any kind of rules.

Scott
Last edited by krenshala on Sat 16 Mar 2019 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
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