Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby Whitecold on Sat 26 Dec 2015 10:22

szurkey wrote:
nukesnipe wrote:This has been an ongoing concern of mine as I consider starting a Starfire solo campaign: How do you keep the size of the fleets manageable?

Has anyone considered using compound interest to increase the costs of systems based on EL? Adding a cost multiplier to systems from a compounding interest formula will little effect on the start of the game, but big effect by EL50.

Cost Modifier = (1 + 0.03272)^(EL)

EL0: CM = 1.00
EL1: CM = 1.03
EL2: CM = 1.07
EL5: CM= 1.17
EL10: CM = 1.38
EL20: CM = 1.90
EL30: CM = 2.63
EL40: CM = 3.62
EL50: CM = 5.00



I doubt this will help. Higher EL systems are already more expensive. The explosion in fleet size comes from the runaway expansion of the empire size. I would look at diminishing returns of colonization to seriously limit an empire in size.
If you want to decrease income, you could also cut down the growth bonus on EL advancement, this would make a less intrusive change.
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby szurkey on Thu 31 Dec 2015 10:07

Whitecold wrote:I doubt this will help. Higher EL systems are already more expensive. The explosion in fleet size comes from the runaway expansion of the empire size. I would look at diminishing returns of colonization to seriously limit an empire in size.
If you want to decrease income, you could also cut down the growth bonus on EL advancement, this would make a less intrusive change.

Let me see if I have this straight. Increase ship costs by up to 90% at EL20 won't reduce fleet size? Increasing ship cost by up to 500% at EL50 won't reduce fleet size? It may not increase it enough, but you could always increase the inflation rate, going from 0.03272 to 0.04713 will double the costs multiplier at EL50 to 1000%. That's 10x more expensive!

For the record, I have long been a proponent of doubling colonization costs, no colonization shipping discount, no EL PU Growth Bonus, IU's purchased at 30 MCr but sold for 24 MCr, ZERO interest on carried balances, and fixed maximum PU size for habitable planets.
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby Cralis on Thu 31 Dec 2015 10:57

szurkey wrote:Let me see if I have this straight. Increase ship costs by up to 90% at EL20 won't reduce fleet size? Increasing ship cost by up to 500% at EL50 won't reduce fleet size? It may not increase it enough, but you could always increase the inflation rate, going from 0.03272 to 0.04713 will double the costs multiplier at EL50 to 1000%. That's 10x more expensive!


I think the bigger issue is that at some point it gets silly as you'll be doing budgets in the hundreds of thousands or millions of MCr. I'd rather limit the growth of income and keep inflation down so the budget is manageable by the average player.

For the record, I have long been a proponent of doubling colonization costs, no colonization shipping discount, no EL PU Growth Bonus, IU's purchased at 30 MCr but sold for 24 MCr, ZERO interest on carried balances, and fixed maximum PU size for habitable planets.


That's true, you have.
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby nukesnipe on Thu 31 Dec 2015 18:05

While the "compound interest" idea is good, I think it has two drawbacks: first, it sounds a lot like Maaaattthh; secondly, it could be a turn off for the younger folks some of us are trying to lure to the dark side.

Maintenance costs will increase as the cost of the ships increase. Reducing income by a factor of 10 would probably put a crimp in fleet sizes by limiting the cash available to purchase ships, and is by far the easiest approach.

I"m still noodling with rich planets/moons having some sort of unobtainium resource which could be tied to military shipping. Sort of dilithium crystals for Starfire. In addition to placing a cap on military HS, it would also provide a strategic element beyond warp point connections for systems that lack habitable planets. That puny systems with the three rich moons suddenly became a lot more important.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby szurkey on Fri 01 Jan 2016 11:58

nukesnipe wrote:While the "compound interest" idea is good, I think it has two drawbacks: first, it sounds a lot like Maaaattthh; secondly, it could be a turn off for the younger folks some of us are trying to lure to the dark side.

Maintenance costs will increase as the cost of the ships increase. Reducing income by a factor of 10 would probably put a crimp in fleet sizes by limiting the cash available to purchase ships, and is by far the easiest approach.

I"m still noodling with rich planets/moons having some sort of unobtainium resource which could be tied to military shipping. Sort of dilithium crystals for Starfire. In addition to placing a cap on military HS, it would also provide a strategic element beyond warp point connections for systems that lack habitable planets. That puny systems with the three rich moons suddenly became a lot more important.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Math is FUN!!!

As for Unobtainium, please see the discussion I started:http://www.starfiredesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2526&hilit=quantium#p29950 I do recommend standardizing mineral richness by Planet Formation Zone by 1d10. The frequency distribution is:
Code: Select all
Mineral
Content  REI   Inner   Bio   Gas   Ice
VR       1.4     2      1     1     0
R        1.2     4      2     1     1
N        1.0     2      4     2     2
P        0.8     1      2     4     3   
VP       0.6     1      1     2     4
EV:             1.1    1.0   0.9   0.8

And then roll 1d10 for presence of Q
Code: Select all
Q?   Inner   Bio   Gas   Ice
Yes    4      2     1     1
No     6      8     9     9

Note that Inner is everything inside the Biosphere, Bio is the Biosphere to Gas. And no Q on habitable planets!
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby szurkey on Fri 01 Jan 2016 18:31

Or for actual 1d10 tables... You only need to roll for Extreme & Desolate planets & moons:
Code: Select all
Mineral
Content  REI   Inner   Bio   Gas   Ice
VR       1.4    9-10   10    10    -
R        1.2    5-8    8-9   9     10
N        1.0    3-4    4-7   7-8   8-9
P        0.8    2      2-3   3-6   5-7   
VP       0.6    1      1     1-2   1-4
EV:             1.1    1.0   0.9   0.8
For Asteroid Belts, either use the EV for where the belt is located, or roll, but be consistent.

And then roll 1d10 for presence of Q:
Code: Select all
Q?   Inner   Bio   Gas   Ice
Yes   7-10   9-10  10    10
No    1-6    1-8   1-9   1-9
Note that Inner is everything inside the Biosphere, Bio is the Biosphere to Gas. And no Q on habitable planets!
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby thebard on Sat 02 Jan 2016 07:17

Whitecold wrote:
szurkey wrote:
nukesnipe wrote:This has been an ongoing concern of mine as I consider starting a Starfire solo campaign: How do you keep the size of the fleets manageable?

... compound interest to increase the costs of systems based on EL ... Cost Modifier = (1 + 0.03272)^(EL)

EL0: CM = 1.00 ..... EL50: CM = 5.00


I doubt this will help. Higher EL systems are already more expensive. The explosion in fleet size comes from the runaway expansion of the empire size. I would look at diminishing returns of colonization to seriously limit an empire in size.
If you want to decrease income, you could also cut down the growth bonus on EL advancement, this would make a less intrusive change.


A happy new year to all...
before suggesting anything, it seems to me that there is a series of balances that work in the game:
raising EL costs A LOT but then you get a fair payback with the PU-growth upon going up an EL level. Reducing the EL growth bónus will effectivley make going up in EL a much less interesting prospect as the huge investment
that this implies could go to other áreas. Although its true that an EL30 DD will annihilate na EL2 DD, could the same EL30 DD take on 100 EL2 DD's? So if you make high SL's extremely expensive (huge item costs or, indirectly, by reducing the EL PU-growth bónus) then you end up saying "don't spend your Money on high techs, just expand your economy and swamp them with low tech ships".

Yes, there are a few "key" techs: Science SL3, PointDef SL3, Capital Ship Scanners SL2 etc
but really, the only "quantum leaps" that I can really see (that alters game play) seems to be with AP around SL5 (when they can transit WP's) and SmallCraft SL7/8.

Yes, probably the best way to control explosive growth is to limit colonization growth in some way ....., but without impeding the first few turn's growth.

But to finish off, I'm at turn 30 in the TPoD campaign and, although my income is much higher than it was, I still don't feel rich and there's always more to do than I can do with the money available (and when that aggressive alien finally attacks me, I'm sure that I'll be complaining that my economy should have grown even more....)
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby szurkey on Sat 23 Jan 2016 20:15

thebard wrote:A happy new year to all...
before suggesting anything, it seems to me that there is a series of balances that work in the game:
raising EL costs A LOT but then you get a fair payback with the PU-growth upon going up an EL level. Reducing the EL growth bónus will effectivley make going up in EL a much less interesting prospect as the huge investment
that this implies could go to other áreas. Although its true that an EL30 DD will annihilate na EL2 DD, could the same EL30 DD take on 100 EL2 DD's? So if you make high SL's extremely expensive (huge item costs or, indirectly, by reducing the EL PU-growth bónus) then you end up saying "don't spend your Money on high techs, just expand your economy and swamp them with low tech ships".

Yes, there are a few "key" techs: Science SL3, PointDef SL3, Capital Ship Scanners SL2 etc
but really, the only "quantum leaps" that I can really see (that alters game play) seems to be with AP around SL5 (when they can transit WP's) and SmallCraft SL7/8.

Yes, probably the best way to control explosive growth is to limit colonization growth in some way ....., but without impeding the first few turn's growth.

But to finish off, I'm at turn 30 in the TPoD campaign and, although my income is much higher than it was, I still don't feel rich and there's always more to do than I can do with the money available (and when that aggressive alien finally attacks me, I'm sure that I'll be complaining that my economy should have grown even more....)

The basic assumption is that the reason you have too large of fleets is because the costs increases per SL for equipment are not high enough. By using the compound interest rate formula, using SL for time, you get a gradual increase in costs.
Code: Select all
SL    2%     5%
0    0.0%   0.0%
1    2.0%   5.0%
2    4.0%  10.3%
3    6.1%  15.8%
4    8.2%  21.6%
5   10.4%  27.6%
Most new systems are 2 to 5 SL's above the previous. While 5% probably is to high, 2% or 3% might be correct for where this formula needs to be to keep high SL worth while, while increasing costs enough to drop fleet sizes. Because not only are you increasing the costs of ships, you increasing the costs of maintenance.

For the record, I think you are right that 5% is too high. 2% will reduce fleet size by about 10% for 5SL higher force, but that should still leave enough of an advantage to the higher SL force over a horde of lower SL ships.
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Re: Limiting an Empire's Fleet Size

Postby PracticalM on Sun 24 Jan 2016 18:54

I would be curious about the actual data on this. Because if the cost of the next higher level equipment is too high then it's better to just make more lower SL ships. GSF suffered from some of this problem where the higher level tech wasn't worth researching compared to just building more lower level stuff.

I would want to compare the following.

EL/SL3 ships against EL/SL8 ships with the EL/SL3 ships having x + the mean cost of EL and SL research to SL8 to x of SL8 ships.

Anyone want to propose the average cost of going up 5 ELs and say 5 SLs in about 4-5 tech trees?
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