DRM, Pirates, and much more

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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby aramis on Wed 25 Jan 2012 02:58

Cralis - Excellent essay.

Be advised: yet another bit of bad-for-everyone-in-the-US legislation is going through the system... "Protecting Children from Internet Pornography Act." The Problem is section 4, which eliminates due process for obtaining records of browsing (Law Enforcement gets them just by asking if it passes, no warrant, no judge, just a requirement to turn over the records the moment a police officer requests them.), and requires ISP's to keep 12 months of records on every user. Which said requirement for tracking will up ISP costs, and thus access costs. The removal of due process also erodes the 4th amendment.

I patronize several ebook retail sites - most of which either watermark or provide unpersonalized unprotected PDF.
I willingly pay the extra on iTunes for the non-DRM versions.
I've not read any ebook novels that were not from Baen in the last several years, because Baen doesn't DRM. I even paid the extra to get Cryoburn in the ARC ebook.

I bought CD's from FFE for Traveller - had to unlock them to display them on my ebook reader, but they worked just fine on my computer before unlocking. It's pretty trivial to do so.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby godsgopher on Wed 25 Jan 2012 03:56

So here's what will likely happen. The law will sale through as some politicians proof that him being elected was a good move and the voters should put him there again. Next, in 6-18 months some citizen with more money than sense, an enlarged case of self righteousness , or maybe he's just a resident of California will take it all the way to the Supreme Court as "unConstitutional". But before that can happen five years from now, the higher costs of digital produces due to increased ISP costs will force even more sales over-seas...

Now I'm not going to pretend for a second that our country has more problems than others, honestly I really do think we get off kind of light in that department sometimes. But does anyone else get the feeling were slowly silting our economic throats here? I recall a conversation with a man at church last year who mentioned that if we had to re-fight World War II again today, we couldn't do it. I naturally asked him what on earth are you talking about, this is America were the greatest super power on earth at present. He told me that all those factories and machine shops that made us the arsenal of democracy in the 40's are all gone. The machine shops are all closed, having been taxed out of existence to the point there are only seven companies left in the US that even do that kind of work.

More and more I'm hearing that "skilled labor" jobs in the country are drifting over-seas or way down south. I realize that over time economics changes and the people must change with it. But when we have driven away our production capacity, Bankrupted our Farms, and now it seems were driving out our Programers and our Online Business that we had a major hand in developing in the first place I have to wonder... Can the people of this country support themselves any longer?

Now many of these regulations are put into place to protect people. And I actually like that about this country. Many dangerous drugs never reach the shelves because the FDA stops them, Lawyers test each new law that comes into play rigorously in the courts, and the EPA makes sure the sewers are safe for gold fish. But one has to wonder at each of these when taken collectively. How much money do we spend as a nation trying to watch everyone? How much does this increase the cost to ourselves in the market. And if these protections absolutely necessary to our well being why do we take products in from so many other countries that don't practice the same level of care we do?

I don't get it, so I'm going to bed, Goodnight...
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby Club on Wed 25 Jan 2012 06:34

http://www.cracked.com/article_18377_5- ... apple.html

Read reason #5. That's the first one listed.
TAG: As I understand it, he sought to avoid turning one-point-six trillion Terran sophonts into undead, war-mongering super-soldiers.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby Cralis on Wed 25 Jan 2012 20:31

godsgopher wrote:So here's what will likely happen. The law will sale through as some politicians proof that him being elected was a good move and the voters should put him there again. Next, in 6-18 months some citizen with more money than sense, an enlarged case of self righteousness , or maybe he's just a resident of California will take it all the way to the Supreme Court as "unConstitutional". But before that can happen five years from now, the higher costs of digital produces due to increased ISP costs will force even more sales over-seas...


Perhaps, but globalization is not a bad thing per se. Let me ask you which of these two scenarios is worse?

1. You work for a company making commercial airliners. Your company decides that it is going to move its manufacturing facilities from your state to, say...North Carolina. Obviously this means that you will lose your job unless you accept an offer to move to the new facility and accept a different wage.

2. You work for a company making commercial airliners. Your company decides that it is going to move its manufacturing facilities from your state to, say... Beijing. Obviously this means you will lose your job unless you accept an offer to move to China and work at the new facility at a different wage.

Which is worse? Why?

Now I'm not going to pretend for a second that our country has more problems than others, honestly I really do think we get off kind of light in that department sometimes. But does anyone else get the feeling were slowly silting our economic throats here? I recall a conversation with a man at church last year who mentioned that if we had to re-fight World War II again today, we couldn't do it. I naturally asked him what on earth are you talking about, this is America were the greatest super power on earth at present. He told me that all those factories and machine shops that made us the arsenal of democracy in the 40's are all gone. The machine shops are all closed, having been taxed out of existence to the point there are only seven companies left in the US that even do that kind of work.


I often shake my head in despair that the average American can't even balance his own check book, let alone understand basic economic principles. We don't have as many machine shops because the demand for those machine shops is significantly lower. We no longer rely upon hand-cranked machinery to build, we rely upon computer-driven robotics. Our manufacturing capacity isn't lower, it is simply more concentrated. I believe that if we had to fight a war like WW3, we would be just fine as the instant demand causes hundreds and thousands of new firms to start up and provide supply. We may not have the depth of experience we once had, but we can easily get it back. I think the larger part is that our current round of politicians won't know what to do with the higher-tooled industry once the war is over, thinking they need to "prop it up" to save jobs and collapse the whole thing in the end.

More and more I'm hearing that "skilled labor" jobs in the country are drifting over-seas or way down south. I realize that over time economics changes and the people must change with it. But when we have driven away our production capacity, Bankrupted our Farms, and now it seems were driving out our Programers and our Online Business that we had a major hand in developing in the first place I have to wonder... Can the people of this country support themselves any longer?


That is because we are adapting to be a service economy. As many "skilled manufacturing" jobs we move overseas we gain "service jobs" back. Keep in mind that many technological fields like computer programming and engineering are considered service jobs.

Globalization - if done right - has the potential to make everyone's lives better. By allowing different countries to specialize in different fields and products we optimize the use of resources for those products. In fact, this optimization is good enough that it often overcomes the added cost of transporting the goods. Having said that, countries like China who play fast and loose with quality control and wage control will end up either being pariahs or losing trade (as they are now) over the problems they cause.

Many many firms were globalizing their work force through the '90s and early 2000's. Many of those countries are beginning to bring their work force back home because of the lack of quality, and the fact that some countries are playing games that end up costing those firms a great deal.

Now many of these regulations are put into place to protect people. And I actually like that about this country. Many dangerous drugs never reach the shelves because the FDA stops them, Lawyers test each new law that comes into play rigorously in the courts, and the EPA makes sure the sewers are safe for gold fish. But one has to wonder at each of these when taken collectively. How much money do we spend as a nation trying to watch everyone? How much does this increase the cost to ourselves in the market. And if these protections absolutely necessary to our well being why do we take products in from so many other countries that don't practice the same level of care we do?


On the flip side, you aren't even considering the considerable deadweight losses imposed when the FDA blocks a natural herb (even attempted to block multivitamins! wtf mate), or the EPA enacts an extremely costly cookie-cutter environmental solution because 98% clean isn't good enough, or when Congress passes laws to the benefit of rent seeking firms and lobbyists.

And you bring a very very good point: if we are going to enforce these policies upon ourselves to act against fraud and malfeasance, why are we not requiring the same from imports? Fun fact: toy stores in China do not carry any toys built in China. Yippee!

Anyway, we can go on and on about economics. There is much to talk about, and we are currently trying to legislate ourselves into the gutter. But aside from SOPA, PIPA, etc. this has little to do directly with our current conversation :)

I don't get it, so I'm going to bed, Goodnight...


Yes, sleep. You have starships to destroy in the morning. You must drive up demand in ship building so your empire has more jobs :lol:
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby Club on Wed 25 Jan 2012 21:39

the manufacturing capacity is not the same. What there is is efficient beyond it's size, but it's reduced. And fewer people make their livings off of it.

I'm sorry, but I haven't been convinced that a service economy would be able to provide a decent lifestyle for our population(s).

And as for the example at the beginning of you post; that's false. A handful of people get shipped over. The rest are left behind, with no wage from that company. Even if they did move to China, they'd have to deal with a significant drop in 'real income,' not just wage.
TAG: As I understand it, he sought to avoid turning one-point-six trillion Terran sophonts into undead, war-mongering super-soldiers.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby grazi on Thu 26 Jan 2012 00:15

can you make me a kindle version of starfire man so i can read it on my kindle? maybe sell it on amazon too?
k thx'z! :)
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby Cralis on Thu 26 Jan 2012 00:38

Club wrote:And as for the example at the beginning of you post; that's false. A handful of people get shipped over. The rest are left behind, with no wage from that company. Even if they did move to China, they'd have to deal with a significant drop in 'real income,' not just wage.


That actually isn't the point of the question.

The point of the question is this: no matter where the factory goes, your job is lost. But for some reason its not a national emergency if the factory goes to North Carolina, but it is if it goes to China. It is one of the few cases where we can see something resembling nationalism in Americans.

No matter where the factory goes, YOUR job is lost. But interestingly enough, we don't lose jobs overall because of this. Because we gain them elsewhere. The reason this is such a hot button topic is that it matters to the person who was just unemployed by the factory moving. Mostly I think it is because we Terrans hate to change. It causes discomfort. Nevermind that we can't avoid it...

Anyway, where we go from there is a discussion on whether or not you want to participate in globalization and free trade. You don't have to, but you have to recognize that your economy will be smaller than it could be if you don't.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby godsgopher on Thu 26 Jan 2012 01:16

Globalization might eventually be a good thing, but I don't think people have realized that its going to be the really rich countries that get hurt the most. We Americans enjoy an outrageous standard of living compared to just about anywhere else in the world. I live bellow the poverty line myself, and yet I have Internet, a new Laptop, I can go to the local coffee shop occasional etc. Yes my home was built in the 30's and its a little cold and drafty right now, but comparably I'm doing great!

But as these more populous and much economically inferior countries increase there skilled workforce they compete directly with us in areas we never had competition before. Now from an economic standpoint this is wonderful because it means the computer programing that costs 60-80$ an hour can be hired in India for say half as much (I have no idea the actually wage) Suddenly America can't compete in the programing side of the industry because our guys demand too much money. So the business shifts over-seas. In the grand scale of the global economy this is a good thing. For the rich countries with high standards of living no one can afford our labor that's a disaster.

You talk about the world specializing and everyone doing what there best at. I'd point out a very obvious flaw in that. We just can't all be investment bankers, or high end software developers, or even working on the cutting edge of medical science. So all those people who don't have those abilities or skills go into bottom rung service jobs, to feed our growing need more more McDonalds. The net effect is our economic might plummets while traditional less educated economics rise.

Now I don't wish to sound heartless or cold, or unfeeling. But I don't give a "flip" whether China or India or any of the current underdogs ever make it out of the bronze age if it means my country had to take a back seat to them. I'm a big beleaver that this world is very much unfair, unjust, and unequal. And while it might make perfectly logical economic sense for things to balance out. That very notion means the big boys are going to be taken down a peg or three.

Remember what happened when Anakin Skywalker brought "balance" to the force. Whoever thought balance was good when the nice guys were on top should have done a little more considering that that was going to mean...

EDIT

I do apologize for moving us away from the subject of DRM. Its an important topic that is often poorly understood. Thanks to everyone who has contributed such amazing information to the discussion. Its been a big help.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby aramis on Thu 26 Jan 2012 15:04

I brought up PCFIPA because, as with PIPA and SOPA, it's a clear civil rights violation in the US. One that can be used (especially with many gamer's discussions) to justify all sorts of willful misrepresentation of context. One that imposes a severe and undue burden upon ISP's...

Not just the cost of memory to log those actions - for my ISP, that's going to add a couple dollars a year - but the costs of staff time (to ensure logging is working, to find, retrieve, and produce requested logs) and programming revisions (to generate those logs in the first place).

Plus, all the police time to figure out if those logs really mean anything (and since it requires no warrant, they can use it to go fishing for whatever they can find).

I'm more worried about certain police deciding that it's worth prosecuting people for hate speech when engaged in religious discussion. (My religion says homosexuality is a sin; certain local groups want that labeled criminal hate speech. Some other countries already do so...)

It's a threat to US access to the internet.
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Re: DRM, Pirates, and much more

Postby godsgopher on Fri 27 Jan 2012 00:02

I'm generally opposed to the concept of hate crimes. Take that case in Jasper Texas here a few years back. They drug a blackman behind there pickup until it killed him. Awful, horrible crime. Defiantly full of hate and a text book example of what a hate crime should supposedly address.

However...Isn't that what we have the "Murder" charge for?

Question: Why are some people deserving of more legal protection than others?
Its not because they are a Minority. Atheists, Christians, Muslim, Football players, Computer Gamers, Furries, Teachers, and many many others are all minorities, but I'm unaware of any special protections being lobbied for them.

Question:
Why does an Organization called the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People limit themselves to advancing the rights of a very specific color? What about Yellow and Red, historically they haven't gotten a very good deal ether.

Question: What does any of this have to do with DRM?
Answer: not much of anything, but its just another thing that hacks us off because it doesn't make much sense.
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