Wolf 1061c

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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby procyon on Tue 22 Dec 2015 01:36

aramis wrote:If the Alcubierre-White warp drive manages to get off the ground, the expected pseudo-speed is 10 C...


Ok, I'd be interested in the math on that one. Any chance you would know where you saw that?
I'm just curious on the calculations (if they are sharing).

aramis wrote:The issue with current provisioning is that, even for irradiated food, 2 years is about the point where simple chemical breakdown significantly reduces both nutrition and palatability. (Source: NASA TV)


True.
But at least this is a problem we can address with current technology and scientific understanding.
I don't have to generate matter with a negative mass to make food last longer... :mrgreen:

aramis wrote:Best odds of getting to go within our lifetimes? about the same as the odds of Dr. White being right about his transformation of Dr. Alcubierre's theorem.


Sadly, agreed...
The Alc. tensor is the solution to a formulation that doesn't exist (currently). And the implication of it would be rather...problemsome.
It would act a bit like a DF from starfire. In that objects that entered or existed in the area of 'altered spacetime' would be subjected to accelerations greater than c, they would by (ok, most theoretical) definition be converted from 'matter' to 'energy'. Of simply become naked singularities (which would be the same thing, just contained within an event horizon...).

Alc metrics are fun thought experiments. But the actual 'execution' of one would (probably) be impossible. At least until someone can isolate substantial quantities of matter with a negative mass.
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby Cralis on Tue 22 Dec 2015 03:41

procyon wrote:Alc metrics are fun thought experiments. But the actual 'execution' of one would (probably) be impossible. At least until someone can isolate substantial quantities of matter with a negative mass.


Ahhhh! Or trick the mass into thinking it is negative. Aren't we currently playing "Where's Waldo?" with the Higgs Boson?

Btw Procyon, what do you make of this report of a possible spotting of a particle heavier than the Higgs Boson? As I understand it, if it turns out to be true, it currently doesn't really fit into any current models? (hmmmm wonder if it could be a missing particle from Lisi's E8 TOE?)
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby procyon on Tue 22 Dec 2015 05:15

Cralis wrote:Ahhhh! Or trick the mass into thinking it is negative.


I have no idea how that could be accomplished. You can either have mass, or be massless - but there is no function to create a sustained negative energy/mass state*. The fact (possibility ?) that this would create an entirely separate symmetry with inverse scalar/function would complicate the entire situation and possibly negate it's use in an Alc drive...
But in the absence of a particle with negative mass it is impossible to verify or refute the possibility.

Cralis wrote:Btw Procyon, what do you make of this report of a possible spotting of a particle heavier than the Higgs Boson? As I understand it, if it turns out to be true, it currently doesn't really fit into any current models? (hmmmm wonder if it could be a missing particle from Lisi's E8 TOE?)


Sorry. Still not a fan of E8. But that is irrelevant. I am not heavily invested in Standard Model either.
Quantum predictions for the Higgs have always been far heavier that what was predicted by Standard Model (up to 8 times the currently accepted value). It could also be another particle. It could be signs that an entirely different type symmetry breaking is actually occuring and that the current concept of scalar fields is just the latest 'ether'.
Your guess could be as good as mine.

* Ok, there is Casimir vacuum. But that is actually a zero point energy state creating pressure on the plates, not a negative state between the plates...
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby Cralis on Tue 22 Dec 2015 11:38

procyon wrote:
Cralis wrote:Ahhhh! Or trick the mass into thinking it is negative.


I have no idea how that could be accomplished. You can either have mass, or be massless - but there is no function to create a sustained negative energy/mass state*. The fact (possibility ?) that this would create an entirely separate symmetry with inverse scalar/function would complicate the entire situation and possibly negate it's use in an Alc drive...
But in the absence of a particle with negative mass it is impossible to verify or refute the possibility.


Reminds me of the "Heisenberg Compensators" from Star Trek. When their science guy was asked (at a convention) 'how does it work?' he said something to the effect of 'very well, thank you'

Fortunately this is science fiction. We can see what needs to be done, even if nobody currently knows how...

Cralis wrote:Btw Procyon, what do you make of this report of a possible spotting of a particle heavier than the Higgs Boson? As I understand it, if it turns out to be true, it currently doesn't really fit into any current models? (hmmmm wonder if it could be a missing particle from Lisi's E8 TOE?)


Sorry. Still not a fan of E8. But that is irrelevant. I am not heavily invested in Standard Model either.


No but it IS a fascinating concept that I'm taking advantage of... oh drat, back to that science fiction thing again :)

Quantum predictions for the Higgs have always been far heavier that what was predicted by Standard Model (up to 8 times the currently accepted value). It could also be another particle. It could be signs that an entirely different type symmetry breaking is actually occuring and that the current concept of scalar fields is just the latest 'ether'.
Your guess could be as good as mine.


Well yeah, until we know exactly what is going on, we are still guessing. But I was reading that the possible Higgs Boson was 125-127 gev with neutral parity and no spin (dead on for the standard model Higgs Boson), and this new one is in the neighborhood of 750 gev!! More intriguing, it was detected in an experiment designed to search for gravitons...

Anyway... getting off topic here. I was just trying to point out that our only real obligations in science fiction is to define the solution, not engineer a solution, and to be consistent with whatever rules we've chosen to follow. In some ways that is easier than real life, and in other ways it is much, much harder...

* Ok, there is Casimir vacuum. But that is actually a zero point energy state creating pressure on the plates, not a negative state between the plates...


Yes, well, perhaps we don't need negative mass, just negative space? ;)
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby southwestforests on Tue 22 Dec 2015 11:57

Cralis wrote:Fortunately this is science fiction. We can see what needs to be done, even if nobody currently knows how...
No but it IS a fascinating concept that I'm taking advantage of... oh drat, back to that science fiction thing again :)
I don't recall this morning if it was taken advantage of at the time, but I'm pretty sure there was a time when supersonic flight may well have been relegated to the realm of science fiction. Something of a somewhat lower order of magnitude than FTL flight, but, hey, the principle applies.
And though I am interested in the physics of the universe and potential FTL, the way my health is any more it all gets over my head real quick like.
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby procyon on Tue 22 Dec 2015 17:49

Cralis wrote:But I was reading that the possible Higgs Boson was 125-127 gev with neutral parity and no spin (dead on for the standard model Higgs Boson), and this new one is in the neighborhood of 750 gev!! More intriguing, it was detected in an experiment designed to search for gravitons...


By Standard Model, if you posit an expansive effect to space and that 'vacuum' is not a net zero state (so a scalar field)...then the Higgs boson should be 125 (ish), neutral, and zero spin. The current decay photons definitely show a particle that is at least 99.9% displaying those qualities.
But all that shows is that we have a particle that is definitely a boson with a mass of 125 gev. Not that it is the mass carrier. There are still several other tests that it will need to be subjected to (some of which require alterations to the mass drivers in question) to peg it as the Higgs.
By quantum calcs, the mass carrier could have a 'mass' up to 1000 gev. Some variations show that the 'Higgs' may actually come in 5 separate varieties which are not necessarily all of the same gev value.
And if other tests were to show that vacuum does function as a net zero, then the whole issue gets dropped on its ear.
The new particle discovered is almost certainly not the graviton. It was an aberration of a test looking for the graviton, but I really can not follow that particular line of discussion further. It just happened to be an aberration that occurred in separate tests. Neither occurrence is remarkable in and of itself as decay photons in 'unique' gev ranges are abundant. It just happened to be repeatable (apparently) so it gives a new 'particle' to pursue and attempt to quantify/identify.

southwestforests wrote:And though I am interested in the physics of the universe and potential FTL, the way my health is any more it all gets over my head real quick like.


Sorry. There is a bit of topic drift here. My previous profession predisposes me to getting sucked into these conversations... :roll:
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby aramis on Tue 22 Dec 2015 22:17

procyon wrote:
aramis wrote:If the Alcubierre-White warp drive manages to get off the ground, the expected pseudo-speed is 10 C...


Ok, I'd be interested in the math on that one. Any chance you would know where you saw that?
I'm just curious on the calculations (if they are sharing).


Dr. White's paper on the Alcubierre theorem wherein he shows the tensor calcs that reduce the needed energy.

I didn't follow the math, but he stated an expected 10C pseudovelocity.

procyon wrote:
aramis wrote:Best odds of getting to go within our lifetimes? about the same as the odds of Dr. White being right about his transformation of Dr. Alcubierre's theorem.


Sadly, agreed...
The Alc. tensor is the solution to a formulation that doesn't exist (currently). And the implication of it would be rather...problemsome.
It would act a bit like a DF from starfire. In that objects that entered or existed in the area of 'altered spacetime' would be subjected to accelerations greater than c, they would by (ok, most theoretical) definition be converted from 'matter' to 'energy'. Of simply become naked singularities (which would be the same thing, just contained within an event horizon...).

Alc metrics are fun thought experiments. But the actual 'execution' of one would (probably) be impossible. At least until someone can isolate substantial quantities of matter with a negative mass.


It's interesting to note (also from one of Dr. White's papers) that Dr White's calculation of expected deviation in speed of C in air across a warp field (essentially, the laser metric he was going to use to test if a ring coil could generate a warp field) fails to null across the inside of a Shawyer-style EMDrive. (in other words, the expected null result was significantly off from the measured result of the laser across the chamber.)

Both papers were at NASA servers.
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby procyon on Wed 23 Dec 2015 18:06

aramis wrote:Dr. White's paper on the Alcubierre theorem wherein he shows the tensor calcs that reduce the needed energy.I didn't follow the math, but he stated an expected 10C pseudovelocity.


From the paper I saw of Dr White's, his math was not complete in that he did not elaborate on all the values he was using. So although you could use the 'theorem', you simply inserted whatever value you wanted and came up with whatever result you cared for. It essentially just showed the required distortion/mass for a given displacement. No actual expected velocity.

Both papers were at NASA servers.


I've seen the original paper, but not the null tests for the EM. I will have to see if I can dig that one up. Thanks.
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...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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Re: Wolf 1061c

Postby procyon on Thu 24 Dec 2015 17:58

Dug up some of the papers published on the tests using the inferometer and the EM Drive.
I have a bad feeling that what his deviation in transit time for the beam in the EM chamber is actually due to him creating a Bessel effect for the beam. Which will slow it down due to the angular acceleration of the photons (although the beam will still travel in a straight path, the photons travel as if they are still crossing the extra distance causing a lag in transit time).

But the papers I could read did not give the data I would need to calculate if the delay would be equal to that created by the Gaussian effect.
...and I will show you fear in a handful of dust....

Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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