LOD, CLK and St

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LOD, CLK and St

Postby Whitecold on Thu 15 Jun 2017 16:13

So, I am wondering about this trio of stealth systems, if I got this right:

St only gives a reduction to sensor range, but doesn't affect the detection category.
St are mentioned to reduce own sensor ranges, but I can't find by how much.

LOD changes the detection category and reduces own sensor range by -2, enemy detection capabilities are unaffected.

CLK reduces enemy sensor generation, changes detection category, however completely eliminates LONG sensors

The thing that got me puzzled was that CLK is supposed to be superior to LOD, however once you get Yce, a LOD unit can provide stealthy sH range surveillance, while a CLK unit cannot? Is this intentional, or am I missing something?
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Cralis on Fri 16 Jun 2017 20:45

Whitecold wrote:So, I am wondering about this trio of stealth systems, if I got this right:

St only gives a reduction to sensor range, but doesn't affect the detection category.
St are mentioned to reduce own sensor ranges, but I can't find by how much.


The second sentence of St.01 says "by the same amount."

LOD changes the detection category and reduces own sensor range by -2, enemy detection capabilities are unaffected.


Yeah, it's really confusing to have both sensor generations reduction and detection category changes in Table D5.02. In the next version we are considering doing away with the detection category changes and going with straight sensor generation reductions for both you and the enemy. This would vastly simplify things.

But in the meantime, what happens right now is that your sensors are degraded by 2 generations and your unit's are detected at medium instead of long range by the enemy. And don't forget about LOD flashes, because that prevents you from using LOD to sneak up and then drop your DF or go into station keeping to increase your sensor range. If you are within range of the enemy, they'll see you too.

CLK reduces enemy sensor generation, changes detection category, however completely eliminates LONG sensors

The thing that got me puzzled was that CLK is supposed to be superior to LOD, however once you get Yce, a LOD unit can provide stealthy sH range surveillance, while a CLK unit cannot? Is this intentional, or am I missing something?


Ahh. Here is where I got hung up until Marvin explained to me where he was going with this. CLK is apparently not meant to be a device you put on all of your ships so they can travel around undetected. It is meant as a tactical system that allows you to obfuscate or hide some of your ships and give you tactical options that you didn't have before. It is not meant to be a system to hide your entire fleet... because you need some ships uncloaked to provide sensor coverage.

That's also why CLKa is at SL 10.

I have other problems with the ULTRA implementation of CLK, such as the fact that the sensor generation reductions are not consistent. Who cares if CLKm lets you move faster when it loses half of the cloaking effect compared to CLKi? Or CLKs vs CLKq?

CLK is on the block for a serious revision by the next version. We have several ideas, but the initial version will still be for tactical combat and not strategic movement. We are planning on having that be a branch off of CLK at a later SL :)
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Whitecold on Sat 17 Jun 2017 00:36

Cralis wrote:Yeah, it's really confusing to have both sensor generations reduction and detection category changes in Table D5.02. In the next version we are considering doing away with the detection category changes and going with straight sensor generation reductions for both you and the enemy. This would vastly simplify things.


Thanks to for your answers. Going to an all-sensor generation method would surely simplify things, however I would be worried that too much emphasis would be put if you can reduce Yc to Yca or to Ya level and below. If you manage full detection at sH range, any tactical surprise effect is gone.

Ahh. Here is where I got hung up until Marvin explained to me where he was going with this. CLK is apparently not meant to be a device you put on all of your ships so they can travel around undetected. It is meant as a tactical system that allows you to obfuscate or hide some of your ships and give you tactical options that you didn't have before. It is not meant to be a system to hide your entire fleet... because you need some ships uncloaked to provide sensor coverage.

That's also why CLKa is at SL 10.

I have other problems with the ULTRA implementation of CLK, such as the fact that the sensor generation reductions are not consistent. Who cares if CLKm lets you move faster when it loses half of the cloaking effect compared to CLKi? Or CLKs vs CLKq?

CLK is on the block for a serious revision by the next version. We have several ideas, but the initial version will still be for tactical combat and not strategic movement. We are planning on having that be a branch off of CLK at a later SL :)


Yeah, I was quite puzzled when I looked at the table to see sensor reductions being reduced.
I didn't plan on putting it on all ships, though it would be a really mean surprise to do on an NPR, but my intuitive use was to use CLK as better LOD on stealthed scouts and pickets. Kinda a downer that LOD can do something CLK can't do, especially as Yce is around by the time you get to CLK.
If the idea is just to block you from cloaking your entire fleet, wouldn't it be possible to add a mounting size limit, so for example CLKa can only be put on BC or smaller? This would allow both pickets/raiders or surprise forces for an unexpected attack, but keeps you from cloaking all your fleet. (Unless you of course are confident in fighting SDs with BCs only)
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Cralis on Sat 17 Jun 2017 04:50

Whitecold wrote:
Cralis wrote:Yeah, it's really confusing to have both sensor generations reduction and detection category changes in Table D5.02. In the next version we are considering doing away with the detection category changes and going with straight sensor generation reductions for both you and the enemy. This would vastly simplify things.


Thanks to for your answers. Going to an all-sensor generation method would surely simplify things, however I would be worried that too much emphasis would be put if you can reduce Yc to Yca or to Ya level and below. If you manage full detection at sH range, any tactical surprise effect is gone.


That's hard to avoid until SL7 or so, because there are only a handful of generations of Y and Yc. Even just a -2 reduces Ya to Ind2 and Yca to Ya. Of course, small and larger populations get bonuses to their sensor generations and all populations have Y + Yc, so they are at a slight advantage to protect the population.

CLK is on the block for a serious revision by the next version. We have several ideas, but the initial version will still be for tactical combat and not strategic movement. We are planning on having that be a branch off of CLK at a later SL :)


Yeah, I was quite puzzled when I looked at the table to see sensor reductions being reduced.
I didn't plan on putting it on all ships, though it would be a really mean surprise to do on an NPR, but my intuitive use was to use CLK as better LOD on stealthed scouts and pickets. Kinda a downer that LOD can do something CLK can't do, especially as Yce is around by the time you get to CLK.
If the idea is just to block you from cloaking your entire fleet, wouldn't it be possible to add a mounting size limit, so for example CLKa can only be put on BC or smaller? This would allow both pickets/raiders or surprise forces for an unexpected attack, but keeps you from cloaking all your fleet. (Unless you of course are confident in fighting SDs with BCs only)[/quote]

We (the SDS) prefer not to use arbitrary mounting limits. For example, putting an arbitrary limit on the size of vessel that can use CLK and then removing the sensor limitation doesn't do a thing to prevent you from using CLK to perform strategic movement with smaller ships, and it does prevent you from using CLK in it's tactical capacity with larger ships.

And it seems that you're forgetting the huge advantages that CLK has over LOD in tactical combat.
* You can continue to use CLK to reduce the effectiveness of enemy weapons in combat, while LOD flashes every time you use a weapon or active system and you lose the cover of LOD.
* CLK also provides a penalty to any unit firing at the mounting unit while it is in P detection.
* Not to mention the fact that you can move faster with CLK than you can with LOD.
* Oh and shields. Don't forget you can't use shields with LOD.

So there are many advantages to CLK over LOD.
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Whitecold on Sat 17 Jun 2017 07:07

I am aware of the advantages of CLK in combat situations, I tried to make a suggestion on how to get a system that is an improvement of LOD for scouts and pickets, while still not being able to just put CLK on everything. I'd imagine the mounting limit increases with CLK generation.
Just as it is written now, after praising the combat sensor range CLK should have a warning label, 'but unlike LOD kills your all important long sensor range'
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Cralis on Sat 17 Jun 2017 10:36

Whitecold wrote:I am aware of the advantages of CLK in combat situations, I tried to make a suggestion on how to get a system that is an improvement of LOD for scouts and pickets, while still not being able to just put CLK on everything. I'd imagine the mounting limit increases with CLK generation.


I understand what you are suggesting. But the original design of this first version of CLK is explicitly NOT designed for scouts and pickets. :) It's designed for carriers and warships.

No matter, it's going to get adjustments and we'll be giving it multiple branches with progression. The big question is at what point do we want to introduce a "true cloaking device" that would be used all the time... and what will the drawback be for using it.

And then we need to decide if we want to have an "age of cloaking" where everyone cloaks everything all the time and strategic sensors effectively go back to being short ranged. At least until the next tech comes along and can see through the cloak at least part of the time. Hmm...

Just as it is written now, after praising the combat sensor range CLK should have a warning label, 'but unlike LOD kills your all important long sensor range'


I would think the "no long range" would do that just fine :lol:
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Whitecold on Wed 08 Nov 2017 13:32

I found more confusing rules relating to CLK. The CLK rules talk specifically about ships being P detected, but a CLK unit can usually only be D or T detected.
D5.2.6 allows return fire at -2, but CLK.05 never comes into play, as CLK units cannot ever be P detected.
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Re: LOD, CLK and St

Postby Cralis on Wed 08 Nov 2017 15:25

Whitecold wrote:I found more confusing rules relating to CLK. The CLK rules talk specifically about ships being P detected, but a CLK unit can usually only be D or T detected.


CLK.04 is the rule flagged as needing an edit for being unclear. What the rule is trying to say is that a CLK unit is detected as T at the reduced combat ranged of your sensors, but is detected as P between the reduced combat range and the normal combat range of your sensors.

D5.2.6 allows return fire at -2, but CLK.05 never comes into play, as CLK units cannot ever be P detected.


If the CLK unit is in that P detection range in the degraded portion of your normal sensor range, and fired, then CLK.04 and CLK.05 come into play. Specifically under D5.02.4 where you can fire at a P target that had previously been a T target. The CLK unit becomes T during the turn it fires.

This can also happen if the unit moves into T range and then back out into the degraded P range of your sensors.
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