(Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

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(Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Skarn on Wed 20 May 2020 09:28

I'm attempting to design FT units suitable for use in my survey fleet's Turn 0 purchases for my first 6E game (solo), and I want to make sure that I'm correctly interpreting the relevant rules.

G2.04 states that (Bs) may land or launch any number of smcft in a single turn. However, this appears to be somewhat irrelevant to my plans, since an st takes 2 bbp which is the maximum capacity of (Bsa). (It would be relevant if I were using gigs (1 bbp), but st has more StMP and therefore more utility in this situation.)

G2.04.1.1 states that squadrons can move freely between their bay and any suitable launch facility, but (Bs) serves double duty in this regard and I'm not working with squadrons in any case.

Reading E4.04 tells me that I can store a single, ready to fly st in each H (250 csp per bbp).

However, I couldn't find anywhere that states (Bs) have a direct link to H like Hb does, or like (BL) with (Bg) or (Bf). I take it, therefore, that I'll need to use Table E4.01A, internal transfer, and spend 500 turns (4 Hours, 10 Minutes) to move an st from H to (Bsa), hot-bunk my st in the (Bsa) every 4 days (AA10.02) during the survey to keep them in the air, and spend the same 500 turns each to re-stow them afterwards before flying off.

Did I interpret that correctly?

I realize that a fast hull without the 30 HS/(B?) limit would eliminate the bottleneck, but I'm trying to do this inexpensively.
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Cralis on Thu 21 May 2020 23:08

Skarn wrote:Reading E4.04 tells me that I can store a single, ready to fly st in each H (250 csp per bbp).

However, I couldn't find anywhere that states (Bs) have a direct link to H like Hb does, or like (BL) with (Bg) or (Bf). I take it, therefore, that I'll need to use Table E4.01A, internal transfer, and spend 500 turns (4 Hours, 10 Minutes) to move an st from H to (Bsa), hot-bunk my st in the (Bsa) every 4 days (AA10.02) during the survey to keep them in the air, and spend the same 500 turns each to re-stow them afterwards before flying off.


This is true of EVERYTHING. Very few internal systems have a "direct link" between each other. The obvious examples are Squadron Bays and Launch Bays, and any munition-requiring weapons and a magazine. You are correct that normally you have to use internal transfer.

However, it looks like we didn't think about this. There is no way you're going to transfer a shuttle through the corridors of the ship. I'm going to add this to our internal discussions and state that anything over a certain size that cannot be broken down (aka a shuttle) must be transferred OUT of the ship to space and then back into the ship through the shuttle bay's exterior access. [Table E4.01A]

Did I interpret that correctly?

I realize that a fast hull without the 30 HS/(B?) limit would eliminate the bottleneck, but I'm trying to do this inexpensively.


I suppose... but this is an obvious loophole. Small craft maintenance is essentially per bay. The small craft stored into H rule was intended as an emergency storage when your fleet's small craft bays are destroyed faster than the small craft are being destroyed.

I'll be discussing with the SDS adding to G6 an addition that says that bays can only support a number of small craft equal to their storage capacity. Any additional small craft that are using the bay are considered "out of maintenance". I believe this is explicitly declared for squadrons in the squadron rules, but not for other small craft.
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Skarn on Wed 27 May 2020 11:19

Cralis wrote:I suppose... but this is an obvious loophole. Small craft maintenance is essentially per bay. The small craft stored into H rule was intended as an emergency storage when your fleet's small craft bays are destroyed faster than the small craft are being destroyed.

I'll be discussing with the SDS adding to G6 an addition that says that bays can only support a number of small craft equal to their storage capacity. Any additional small craft that are using the bay are considered "out of maintenance". I believe this is explicitly declared for squadrons in the squadron rules, but not for other small craft.


The way I read it, what you suggest would, in effect, totally invalidate the ability for H to serve as emergency storage, without some sort of mitigating factor; in effect, by being out of maintenance, you are unable to pay the required 0 MCr to maintain unarmed smcft and it is therefore destroyed when it gets loaded into H.

Perhaps a more appropriate remedy would be to say that for smcft with 0 maintenance cost (gigs, shuttles, buoy shuttles, and heavy shuttles), endurance can't be replenished until they have appropriate bbp dedicated to them by a (Bs?) system (or the free gig bay on a large unit > 13 HS), and that time spent transferring into and out of the H via airlock or Hb (at the standard rates per table E4.01A) must be counted against their endurance.

This would both retain the ability of H to serve as emergency storage, as well as allow for transportation in H when sufficient [(SY)|(SYM)|(MS)] aren't available for uncrating in the destination system (albeit with long transfer times and some minor logistical headaches for planning rendezvous locations if transferring shuttles to, say, survey fleets that left home without a full supply of smcft).
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Cralis on Thu 28 May 2020 03:38

Skarn wrote:The way I read it, what you suggest would, in effect, totally invalidate the ability for H to serve as emergency storage, without some sort of mitigating factor; in effect, by being out of maintenance, you are unable to pay the required 0 MCr to maintain unarmed smcft and it is therefore destroyed when it gets loaded into H.


I think you and I have different definitions of emergency storage. The definition that we use is "it would be immediately destroyed without the use of emergency storage." It is not, and never will be, a way to store small craft and keep them maintained.

Perhaps a more appropriate remedy would be to say that for smcft with 0 maintenance cost (gigs, shuttles, buoy shuttles, and heavy shuttles), endurance can't be replenished until they have appropriate bbp dedicated to them by a (Bs?) system (or the free gig bay on a large unit > 13 HS), and that time spent transferring into and out of the H via airlock or Hb (at the standard rates per table E4.01A) must be counted against their endurance.


I have some experience maintaining vehicles for the military. You can't just shove them into a corner and leave them untouched until you want to pull them out again. Motors, electrical systems, and depending upon the length of time even something as simple as seats and covers will all degrade. Aircraft... and especially spacecraft ...will be even more sensitive to a lack of ongoing maintenance because they have parts and pieces that require delicately balanced fluid pressure and super high precision. And that's really what we are talking about here. You simply cannot maintain these things in a cargo hold. That is the purpose of shuttle bays and squadron bays.

This would both retain the ability of H to serve as emergency storage, as well as allow for transportation in H when sufficient [(SY)|(SYM)|(MS)] aren't available for uncrating in the destination system (albeit with long transfer times and some minor logistical headaches for planning rendezvous locations if transferring shuttles to, say, survey fleets that left home without a full supply of smcft).


Again, you aren't talking about an emergency as we define it. The proper way to store small craft -- as you've noted -- is through crating. Those small craft will not require ongoing maintenance until they are uncrated.

But if you are leaving a battle and there are a dozen small craft that you are going to have to scuttle just leave behind? Pack them into any available cargo space so you don't immediately lose them.

THAT is the purpose of allowing them to be fit into cargo holds. Otherwise we'd just remove it entirely (and are considering it).
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Skarn on Thu 28 May 2020 12:36

Cralis wrote:I have some experience maintaining vehicles for the military.
. . .
But if you are leaving a battle and there are a dozen small craft that you are going to have to scuttle just leave behind? Pack them into any available cargo space so you don't immediately lose them.

THAT is the purpose of allowing them to be fit into cargo holds. Otherwise we'd just remove it entirely (and are considering it).


Then going forward, my intent is to yield the point and seek further clarification beyond what is in the RAW.

How long after being put uncrated into H should smcft (especially those with 0 maintenance cost) remain viable before they must have dedicated (Bs) space or be considered destroyed?
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Cralis on Thu 28 May 2020 20:38

Skarn wrote:How long after being put uncrated into H should smcft (especially those with 0 maintenance cost) remain viable before they must have dedicated (Bs) space or be considered destroyed?


Remember that no small units has 0 maintenance. In the case of smcft, the maintenance is subsumed into the cost (and maintenance) of shuttle bays and squadron bays. It was done for simplicity. That means that the cost isn't "0", but is hidden in the bay that maintains it. No bay = no maintenance.

That said, the smcft immediately goes into "out of maintenance." Thus at the end of the month if they are still "out of maintenance" then they will suffer the effects of L7.02, which means that there is a chance that they will be destroyed. In addition to other effects such as L7.02.3 (unable to be repaired).

I thought there was a rule that says a unit does not require maintenance until it has been active for a full month, but I'm not finding it right now. That way a unit is not built and then 3 days later requires maintenance.
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Skarn on Thu 28 May 2020 21:29

Cralis wrote:
Skarn wrote:How long after being put uncrated into H should smcft (especially those with 0 maintenance cost) remain viable before they must have dedicated (Bs) space or be considered destroyed?


Remember that no small units has 0 maintenance. In the case of smcft, the maintenance is subsumed into the cost (and maintenance) of shuttle bays and squadron bays. It was done for simplicity. That means that the cost isn't "0", but is hidden in the bay that maintains it. No bay = no maintenance.

That said, the smcft immediately goes into "out of maintenance." Thus at the end of the month if they are still "out of maintenance" then they will suffer the effects of L7.02, which means that there is a chance that they will be destroyed. In addition to other effects such as L7.02.3 (unable to be repaired).

L7.02 would appear to suggest that the 'chance' of being destroyed is 100%, since it doesn't list a specific penalty for non-squadron smcft, squadrons lose 10 DP, and a shuttle has 2 DP.

Also, I presume from what you write that if I (hypothetically) want to keep shuttles (or other smcft) available on a planetary surface, I need to have (Bs) on a PDC to keep them maintained.

I thought there was a rule that says a unit does not require maintenance until it has been active for a full month, but I'm not finding it right now. That way a unit is not built and then 3 days later requires maintenance.

This is covered indirectly by the strategic turn sequence in J2
  • Phase I (Economic Phase), Step 4: Make required maintenance payments
  • Phase III (Monthly Activities Phase), Step 1: Receive new military units

All of this also suggests that at least part of what I wanted to do when I started this thread should work.
  • Turn 0, build 60 survey units where each ship has (Bsa), but only a fraction of them have shuttles due to building other units with the Battle Fund and Other Fund, and smcft not being permitted in the Survey Fund
  • Turn 1, calculate the maximum number of shuttles I can load into a FT's H units in about half a speed 4 StMP, build them and an FT0 or FT1 to transport them.
  • Turn 2, load shuttles into the FT1, and while the survey units are still in systems within half of the freighter's StMP, have the freighter move to a survey vessel's projected location, unload a shuttle, transfer it to the arriving survey ship's (Bs), rinse and repeat
  • Turn 3, the now empty FT returns home and on the next turn gets added to the CFN Government Pool.
  • Starting on Turn 2, begin repeating the Turn 1 sequence until enough st have been built to fully load out the entire original order of survey units; if any survey ship gets too far out before gaining it's st, then switch to a dedicated ??fV for transportation
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Cralis on Thu 28 May 2020 22:17

Skarn wrote:L7.02 would appear to suggest that the 'chance' of being destroyed is 100%, since it doesn't list a specific penalty for non-squadron smcft, squadrons lose 10 DP, and a shuttle has 2 DP.


Ahhh I was looking at the next version document we are working on. I suppose it's only fair to give you a preview :D It appears that we added smcft specific text in L7.02 ... it says:

Small Craft - Non-squadron small craft which are out of maintenance and have not been based in a proper bay or facility roll 1d10 and are destroyed on a 4 or less. Roll once every 30 days.

Also, I presume from what you write that if I (hypothetically) want to keep shuttles (or other smcft) available on a planetary surface, I need to have (Bs) on a PDC to keep them maintained.


Pilot Training Facilities (PTF) have some bay space (10 bbp specifically in the next version). You can certainly build shuttle bays on the surface. Hmmm....

What IS intentional is that squadrons require bays (or PTF). That way a planet cannot have thousands of them hiding on the surface (unless you pay for the infrastructure).

All of this also suggests that at least part of what I wanted to do when I started this thread should work.
  • Turn 0, build 60 survey units where each ship has (Bsa), but only a fraction of them have shuttles due to building other units with the Battle Fund and Other Fund, and smcft not being permitted in the Survey Fund
  • Turn 1, calculate the maximum number of shuttles I can load into a FT's H units in about half a speed 4 StMP, build them and an FT0 or FT1 to transport them.
  • Turn 2, load shuttles into the FT1, and while the survey units are still in systems within half of the freighter's StMP, have the freighter move to a survey vessel's projected location, unload a shuttle, transfer it to the arriving survey ship's (Bs), rinse and repeat
  • Turn 3, the now empty FT returns home and on the next turn gets added to the CFN Government Pool.
  • Starting on Turn 2, begin repeating the Turn 1 sequence until enough st have been built to fully load out the entire original order of survey units; if any survey ship gets too far out before gaining it's st, then switch to a dedicated ??fV for transportation


That does work... but wow. I don't think I've ever seen anyone NOT build the smcft as part of the large unit's cost.
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Skarn on Thu 28 May 2020 22:24

First off, thanks for the previews. I'll go drop them into my 6.02 PDF's annotations. :D

Cralis wrote:That does work... but wow. I don't think I've ever seen anyone NOT build the smcft as part of the large unit's cost.

I don't recall seeing the rule that permits me to include the smcft in large unit cost.

--- EDIT ---

The (PTF) bbp are a nice touch, but they don't show up until squadrons are developed. I'm a bit early for that. ;)
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Re: (Bsa), H, & st; Did I Read Correctly?

Postby Cralis on Thu 28 May 2020 22:30

Skarn wrote:I don't recall seeing the rule that permits me to include the smcft in large unit cost.


That's not a rule, that's an organizational detail. That's no different than including the cost of any munitions in the overall cost of the unit.
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