LEL CFN Designs

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LEL CFN Designs

Postby Skarn on Fri 25 Sep 2020 22:53

As I started to plan ship designs for an LEL start solo campaign, I noticed what I find to be a critical item missing from [H1.03.1]: (AD).

I submit that (AD) should be added to the [H1.03.1] list of non-military systems.

  • (AD) requires every single cubic millimeter of permitted military space on an FT hull.
  • (AD) can't be installed on ships large enough to gain a free gig.
  • LEL ships without (AD) can't land, even on worlds without an atmosphere.
  • Therefore, so far as I can see from RAW, LEL CFN FT without (AD) have no way to deliver colonization supplies to the surface of a previously uncolonized world
    • Alternatively, this could be corrected by adding (Bs) to the [K2.04.5.1] list of LEL starting techs and allowing LEL CFN FT to substitute (Bs) for the required Hb

Furthermore, I submit that (AD) should be added to the [K2.04.5.1] list of LEL starting techs, as without it, RAW, an LEL-start player empire has no way to get anything into orbit.
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Re: LEL CFN Designs

Postby Cralis on Sat 26 Sep 2020 14:45

Skarn wrote:As I started to plan ship designs for an LEL start solo campaign, I noticed what I find to be a critical item missing from [H1.03.1]: (AD).

I submit that (AD) should be added to the [H1.03.1] list of non-military systems.

  • (AD) requires every single cubic millimeter of permitted military space on an FT hull.
  • (AD) can't be installed on ships large enough to gain a free gig.
  • LEL ships without (AD) can't land, even on worlds without an atmosphere.
  • Therefore, so far as I can see from RAW, LEL CFN FT without (AD) have no way to deliver colonization supplies to the surface of a previously uncolonized world


    (AD) should be a non-military system, as (AC) already is... I seem to recall that it should be in the errata. I don't see it, so I just added it to the errata. And it's already set for the next version.

    I really like your analysis though. Very well done.

  • Alternatively, this could be corrected by adding (Bs) to the [K2.04.5.1] list of LEL starting techs and allowing LEL CFN FT to substitute (Bs) for the required Hb


  • Hmmm. I'll bring it up with the SDS team for consideration.

    Furthermore, I submit that (AD) should be added to the [K2.04.5.1] list of LEL starting techs, as without it, RAW, an LEL-start player empire has no way to get anything into orbit.


    M1.02.1.4 Allows you to build into orbit, the assumption is that you'll send stuff up via rockets (or something like that). I thought there was a similar rule that allowed a population to transfer with anything in orbit via similar methods... but I don't see that rule. (btw, that's the problem with playing/designing this game for six editions, sometimes you remember old rules)

    I'll make sure that it is covered in the next version. But that was the intent.
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    Re: LEL CFN Designs

    Postby Skarn on Sat 26 Sep 2020 15:17

    Cralis wrote:I really like your analysis though. Very well done.

    Domo arigato, Cralis-san. 8-)

    Cralis wrote:M1.02.1.4 Allows you to build into orbit, the assumption is that you'll send stuff up via rockets (or something like that). I thought there was a similar rule that allowed a population to transfer with anything in orbit via similar methods... but I don't see that rule. (btw, that's the problem with playing/designing this game for six editions, sometimes you remember old rules)

    I'll make sure that it is covered in the next version. But that was the intent.

    I would have expected as much, except for [M1.02.2.2] stating that Ind2 is EL 0 with Limited Facilities. That would appear to override [M1.02.1.4] without either a specific exception for the [K2.04.5.1] LEL start or an official clarification that [M1.02.1.4] overrides once (SY)/(SYM) is developed (and perhaps a note as to how long it takes to build the first (SY), as Nexus had for 2E IIRC).

    As for the "edition lag", I find that rereading the rules when I'm switching editions helps me to reduce the mental "cross-talk". OTOH, that assumes (which for me has so far been true) that I'm not playing different games in multiple editions at once. ;)

    --- EDIT 09-27-2020 --

    [N12.01.2] takes care of the override I referred to above. It just isn't apparent at first due to it's location in [N] instead of [M].
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    Re: LEL CFN Designs

    Postby Cralis on Sun 27 Sep 2020 18:36

    Skarn wrote:
    Cralis wrote:M1.02.1.4 Allows you to build into orbit, the assumption is that you'll send stuff up via rockets (or something like that). I thought there was a similar rule that allowed a population to transfer with anything in orbit via similar methods... but I don't see that rule. (btw, that's the problem with playing/designing this game for six editions, sometimes you remember old rules)

    I'll make sure that it is covered in the next version. But that was the intent.

    I would have expected as much, except for [M1.02.2.2] stating that Ind2 is EL 0 with Limited Facilities. That would appear to override [M1.02.1.4] without either a specific exception for the [K2.04.5.1] LEL start or an official clarification that [M1.02.1.4] overrides once (SY)/(SYM) is developed (and perhaps a note as to how long it takes to build the first (SY), as Nexus had for 2E IIRC).



    Ah, I see the issue. It fails to mention that this rule has exceptions in N12. We already have an update for N12 that specifies that once the ship hulls become available, the shipyards can be used for any build project. We probably should note the exception there at M1.02.2.2

    Which you noted below...

    [N12.01.2] takes care of the override I referred to above. It just isn't apparent at first due to it's location in [N] instead of [M].


    Yeah we'll add that note so it's easy for someone new to follow and understand.

    As for the "edition lag", I find that rereading the rules when I'm switching editions helps me to reduce the mental "cross-talk". OTOH, that assumes (which for me has so far been true) that I'm not playing different games in multiple editions at once. ;)


    Most players either start at a certain version, or have upgraded over time. But there are a few that have gone back and forth. I guess if you play each edition enough then the differences are easier to remember because you're always using it.
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    Re: LEL CFN Designs

    Postby Skarn on Sat 03 Oct 2020 01:36

    In the same vein, do (Cp) count as military systems (and are they CFN permitted) on FT in an empire that has not yet developed (Ic)?

    Without a specific exception permitting (Cp) (or other LEL drives once published) in such a circumstance, it can be argued that RAW, any LEL should have a PCM of 0.

    ---

    [N12.02] prevents the following situation from occurring for an NPR advancing to HEL, but for [K2.04.5.1] situations (player LEL start), I don't see where HEL engine development is automatic. Therefore . . .

    Suppose that a race develops (CpF) before they break the Cp SL 1 branch-knot to open Tactical Engines and thereby gain access to the Commercial Engine twig. The quickest way to permit the CFN to service systems beyond their system of origin is to build a few transit carriers, since @ can be developed while still at EL 0.

    Will the CFN provide their own transit carriers in such a circumstance if they are designed, or must a player design FTx for the CFN to slowly start replacing their FT with (CpF) models? Although it isn't RAW, I assume that the CFN upgrade to transit-capable FT occurs at the same 5%/turn rate as their upgrades to Speed 5 & Speed 6 [L4.10.1.1], making transit carriers potentially more economical than adding (CpF) to the entire fleet, at least in the short-term.

    I submit that it such a situation, it might be appropriate for a player to be able to build transit carriers and lease them to the CFN. It would require a detailed mapping of transit carriers similar to (CC) tracking for the ICN to define where such non-(CpF) ships can travel, but I can see the potential benefits.

    For that matter, an empire using such a system of transit carriers and (Cp?) drives could quite economically accelerate the CFN beyond the RAW CFN cap of 6 StMP. Has this possibility been discussed? Acceleration may be slow, but with (Cpn) (SL 11) making MPS 7 FT hulls 7 SL before (Icq) (SL 18) become available, and only requiring 1 HS of engines to achieve the speed (or 2 HS with (CpF) on each FT) . . . .
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    Re: LEL CFN Designs

    Postby Kumakunshu on Sun 04 Oct 2020 18:16

    Skarn wrote:For that matter, an empire using such a system of transit carriers and (Cp?) drives could quite economically accelerate the CFN beyond the RAW CFN cap of 6 StMP. Has this possibility been discussed? Acceleration may be slow, but with (Cpn) (SL 11) making MPS 7 FT hulls 7 SL before (Icq) (SL 18) become available, and only requiring 1 HS of engines to achieve the speed (or 2 HS with (CpF) on each FT) . . . .


    It is important to remember that in the next version of SSF, the rules that govern the (Cp) drive will receive some changes (according to Cralis from a previous post). One of which will change the MPS for FT hulls from 3 MPS less than the max MPS of standard hulls, to one-half MPS (FRD) of the max MPS for standard hulls. Therefore, the maximum MPS for a (Cp) driven CFN will never be any greater than 5 StMPs, assuming that the SL table for the (Cp) drive tree remains essentially the same. Of course this still allows for my strategic speed 10 Monitor and/or Battle Fleet, but who's counting? :roll: :twisted:
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    Re: LEL CFN Designs

    Postby Cralis on Tue 13 Oct 2020 02:14

    Skarn wrote:[N12.02] prevents the following situation from occurring for an NPR advancing to HEL, but for [K2.04.5.1] situations (player LEL start), I don't see where HEL engine development is automatic. Therefore . . .


    Are you saying that a player may choose to not research an HEL drive? I suppose that could happen...

    Suppose that a race develops (CpF) before they break the Cp SL 1 branch-knot to open Tactical Engines and thereby gain access to the Commercial Engine twig. The quickest way to permit the CFN to service systems beyond their system of origin is to build a few transit carriers, since @ can be developed while still at EL 0.


    CpF doesn't grant access to the Ic twig. If you are suggesting that it should... that's not going to happen. However, your right that transit carriers could provide a bridge across the WP.

    Will the CFN provide their own transit carriers in such a circumstance if they are designed, or must a player design FTx for the CFN to slowly start replacing their FT with (CpF) models? Although it isn't RAW, I assume that the CFN upgrade to transit-capable FT occurs at the same 5%/turn rate as their upgrades to Speed 5 & Speed 6 [L4.10.1.1], making transit carriers potentially more economical than adding (CpF) to the entire fleet, at least in the short-term.


    Another option is that a player could designate a Transit Carrier to a WP that will carry ships across the WP as needed. Maybe even one for each side? Easy to do with SOPs.

    But we could also treat it sort of like the Dangerous System Pool, but instead it would be a "WP Transit Carrier Pool" or something. That would make it easier to track and less of a hassle for an SM running NPCs.

    You could build FT with CpF, although we haven't addressed it directly, and it's unlikely to become a "civilian system"

    I submit that it such a situation, it might be appropriate for a player to be able to build transit carriers and lease them to the CFN. It would require a detailed mapping of transit carriers similar to (CC) tracking for the ICN to define where such non-(CpF) ships can travel, but I can see the potential benefits.


    Like my suggestion above, basically. Hmmm....

    For that matter, an empire using such a system of transit carriers and (Cp?) drives could quite economically accelerate the CFN beyond the RAW CFN cap of 6 StMP. Has this possibility been discussed? Acceleration may be slow, but with (Cpn) (SL 11) making MPS 7 FT hulls 7 SL before (Icq) (SL 18) become available, and only requiring 1 HS of engines to achieve the speed (or 2 HS with (CpF) on each FT) . . . .


    With the new changes that will no longer be possible.
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