Grab Bag Of Questions

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Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby SCC on Fri 18 Aug 2017 01:50

OK the first up is the Battle Fund: Battle Fund (5,000 MCr): Ships purchased through this fund may not be equipped with X, must be armed, and must be at least escort (ES) sized or larger. Bases and small craft can also be built, but freighters, PDCs and SS cannot.
Am I reading this wrong, because it looks, at least a little bit, like I can buy Ammunition Depots but not Colliers? Also, for some reason, Asteroid Forts can't be built with this money, nor can they be built with money from the Other Fund, which is rather odd.

Refits, ah refits, what fun they are. Now according to my interpretation of the rules I can replace Ra with Re or Rra without paying a new class fee. Now if I convert a ship already in service from Ra to Re, does that mean I don't need to pay a class fee on future new construction? Further a read though of the rules for refitting (M3.06) gave me the impression that I wouldn't need to refit the HS in question, is that right?

OK now the rules for refitting without paying a class fee can result in some unusual results, like being able to swap H, Hb and Mg around, but none has to be weird then the fact that both e generation and earlier I and J drives can changed out for ke and later Ic drives, so how do things work out for swapping I and J drives? I realize that this is an unusual situation, possibly unique.

The CON tree has knots for Hull Generations and Improvements, how do those work? And when do Mobile Bases first become available, SL1 or SL4 4?

For now at least, finally: ADM (And maybe EMD) in silos, is this possible?
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby Moonsword on Fri 18 Aug 2017 12:00

SCC wrote:Refits, ah refits, what fun they are. Now according to my interpretation of the rules I can replace Ra with Re or Rra without paying a new class fee. Now if I convert a ship already in service from Ra to Re, does that mean I don't need to pay a class fee on future new construction?


No, it doesn't, per M3.06.3.2: "The first new unit based on a refit design must pay the new class fee if the refit did not have the fee."

SCC wrote:Further a read though of the rules for refitting (M3.06) gave me the impression that I wouldn't need to refit the HS in question, is that right?


That's not how I read M3.06, which only applies to the class fee. However, this is a matter of my opinion until confirmed by someone else.

SCC wrote:OK now the rules for refitting without paying a class fee can result in some unusual results, like being able to swap H, Hb and Mg around, but none has to be weird then the fact that both e generation and earlier I and J drives can changed out for ke and later Ic drives, so how do things work out for swapping I and J drives? I realize that this is an unusual situation, possibly unique.


I and J are different engine trees, they're not even branches of the same tree like R and Rc.

I think you're correct about twigs in a general sense. Considering you're redoing the propulsion system (which affects other things derived ultimately from the engine root), I'd be inclined to house rule Ic cannot be refit into a hull without a class fee. Mg, H, and Hb have different enough rules and mounting restrictions that I'm not really inclined to allow them to be refittable that way, either, but we're getting into house rules territory there, too.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby Cralis on Fri 18 Aug 2017 18:06

Moonsword wrote:
SCC wrote:Refits, ah refits, what fun they are. Now according to my interpretation of the rules I can replace Ra with Re or Rra without paying a new class fee. Now if I convert a ship already in service from Ra to Re, does that mean I don't need to pay a class fee on future new construction?


No, it doesn't, per M3.06.3.2: "The first new unit based on a refit design must pay the new class fee if the refit did not have the fee."


You can replace a system that is from the exact same tree and is the exact same size in HS. You are correct that Ra to Re, or to Rra would be considered such a refit. In the next version of the rules we are going to be calling this a "minor refit" for clarification.

However, Moonsword is correct. If you build the new design brand new based on the refit, it does incur a new class fee because a new ship in the class has not been constructed yet.

In the next version of SSF, M3.06.3.2 will be: A refit creates a new class design (that goes into the Unit Design List [K5.14]). New construction of the refit design requires a Class Unit [M1.03.5.1] even if the refit was a minor refit and did not incur the Class Unit Fee.

SCC wrote:Further a read though of the rules for refitting (M3.06) gave me the impression that I wouldn't need to refit the HS in question, is that right?


That's not how I read M3.06, which only applies to the class fee. However, this is a matter of my opinion until confirmed by someone else.


The very first sentence of M3.06 says "Prior to repairing a damaged system in place or installing a different one, the HSs that carry the system must be repaired/refitted." You absolutely must refit the HS the system is inside, even for a Minor Refit.

SCC wrote:OK now the rules for refitting without paying a class fee can result in some unusual results, like being able to swap H, Hb and Mg around, but none has to be weird then the fact that both e generation and earlier I and J drives can changed out for ke and later Ic drives, so how do things work out for swapping I and J drives? I realize that this is an unusual situation, possibly unique.


I and J are different engine trees, they're not even branches of the same tree like R and Rc.


Moonsword is correct. I and J are in different trees, even if they have the same Engine Root. In fact, they are even exclusionary trees.

H and Hb can be exchanged, because they are both part of the Construction Tree. However, Mg is not and cannot be swapped with H or Hb.

The oddity comes from the Ic twig. Technically the Ic twig is considered part of any branch that leads to it. Because Ic and I or J are different HS sizes, however, you'll find it difficult to do a minor refit. Technically you could swap Ia with Icke...but tehe chances of that happening are next to nothing.

In any case, for absolute giggles lets go with it. You could swap Ia to Icke in a minor refit. Then you could swap Icke to Ja in another minor refit. I'm tempted just to say that you cannot minor refit the Ic twig with anything. It's a headache that is super unlikely and super unnecessary.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby SCC on Fri 18 Aug 2017 20:36

Cralis, could I get an answer to my other questions as well? As to the matter of I, Ic, and J, it's not actually unique, most non-beam weapons have the Anti-Matter generator Twig on them (Have fun with THAT)
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby Cralis on Sat 19 Aug 2017 14:58

SCC wrote:Cralis, could I get an answer to my other questions as well? As to the matter of I, Ic, and J, it's not actually unique, most non-beam weapons have the Anti-Matter generator Twig on them (Have fun with THAT)


OH! My apologies... I responded to Moonsword's post and didn't respond to the OP. DOH.

SCC wrote:OK the first up is the Battle Fund: Battle Fund (5,000 MCr): Ships purchased through this fund may not be equipped with X, must be armed, and must be at least escort (ES) sized or larger. Bases and small craft can also be built, but freighters, PDCs and SS cannot.

Am I reading this wrong, because it looks, at least a little bit, like I can buy Ammunition Depots but not Colliers? Also, for some reason, Asteroid Forts can't be built with this money, nor can they be built with money from the Other Fund, which is rather odd.


You can have both Ammunition Depots and Colliers...as long as they are armed and not freighter hulls. And no, AF are not allowed. I think that originates from earlier versions of Starfire since AF were always so large. It might not be such a big deal in SSF since your T technologies limits the size of AF you can move (assuming you start with T).
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby SCC on Sat 19 Aug 2017 16:59

Huh, the wording on bases was a bit different, to me suggesting that they didn't need to meet the armed criteria, doesn't make any sense, but still there. Any idea why PDC's aren't allowed? You (normally) start with Ta, so that would be a yes.

And you've still missed my last two questions, about Hull Generations/Improvements and ADM in Silo's.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby Cralis on Sun 20 Aug 2017 01:23

SCC wrote:Huh, the wording on bases was a bit different, to me suggesting that they didn't need to meet the armed criteria, doesn't make any sense, but still there. Any idea why PDC's aren't allowed? You (normally) start with Ta, so that would be a yes.

And you've still missed my last two questions, about Hull Generations/Improvements and ADM in Silo's.


I had a commitment to work on an espallier today, and I was hoping I could spend some time looking up some answers before you responded. Guess I called that one wrong...

#1. Silos: ADM, EDM, and other non-standard munitions were not intended to be allowed in silos. There are a number of reasons for the various types, but I will address the two you asked about. It would be imbalanced if you could fire 300 ADM in one volley and EDM cannot protect a planet.

#2. Mobile Bases: As per SSF v6.02, BSg only become available at SL4.

#3. Hull generations and improvements: Hull improvements are 0-space internal improvements that cannot be added as a refit (AA.CON.02 paragraph 2), so they have to be part of the original ship design. Hull generations are effectively internal improvements that allow the hull to be a larger size. AA.CON.04.4 states that the hull can be "upgraded" by adding the HS on the end, and it notes that if any changes are made to the existing systems then it must refitted as well. Or you can just make new ships that are the "new" larger size.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby SCC on Sun 20 Aug 2017 03:10

#1, That makes games-rules sense, if not in-game sense. Of course you'd also need to figure out cost for the launchers. As for EDM's and planets, would interposing the DF of the missile do something, and I've got the nagging feeling I'm missing something here, and not just the times 3 damage for objects with no DF.

#2 Need to move BS0g, BS1g, and BS2g on the Con tree then, as their below SL4

#3, I was more referring to this: Hull Generation: {k} Basic Hulls (b), apparently Basic Hulls require and breakthrough and other traditional research accouterments that hulls don't get.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby Cralis on Sun 20 Aug 2017 03:52

SCC wrote:#1, That makes games-rules sense, if not in-game sense. Of course you'd also need to figure out cost for the launchers. As for EDM's and planets, would interposing the DF of the missile do something, and I've got the nagging feeling I'm missing something here, and not just the times 3 damage for objects with no DF.


In a nutshell, the EDM is itty bitty and planets are huge. And EDM has virtually no affect in an atmosphere, so it can't get close to potential targets to protect them either.

#2 Need to move BS0g, BS1g, and BS2g on the Con tree then, as their below SL4


Just like Crystalline hulls and such, the effective EL/SL of the hull is different from the SL of availability. This affects things like determining effective EL, difficulty in researching the tech, etc. It is exactly as it should be.

#3, I was more referring to this: Hull Generation: {k} Basic Hulls (b), apparently Basic Hulls require and breakthrough and other traditional research accouterments that hulls don't get.


I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you are trying to say (or ask) here.
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Re: Grab Bag Of Questions

Postby procyon on Sun 20 Aug 2017 12:22

I think he is asking about the breakthrough to get generational hulls. You automatically get the alpha gen of hulls. So you can make a 30 HS DDa. But you have to make the breakthrough to make a 35 HS DDb.

At least I think that is what he is referring to.
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Cralis wrote:I would point out that the "what was" which is different from "here and now" can easily change in the "future then."
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