How many Qs do I need ?

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How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Buffrockjaw on Tue 26 Dec 2017 15:17

I've been searching SSF and the board for some time now and I am still confused. How do I calculate how many Q I need ?

edit: what I have done so far, I've looked in "H-Designing units", "Q - Life support" which directs me to "Table E4C" and I am none the wiser for it.

edit 2: I may have found it. Is it the table in LQv.01.1 can anyone confirm ?
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Cralis on Tue 26 Dec 2017 17:05

Buffrockjaw wrote:I've been searching SSF and the board for some time now and I am still confused. How do I calculate how many Q I need ?

edit: what I have done so far, I've looked in "H-Designing units", "Q - Life support" which directs me to "Table E4C" and I am none the wiser for it.


Which version of Solar Starfire are you using? (it's on page 3 of the PDF after "Introduction to the Starfire Gaming System", go to the header "Publisher's Information" and the first sentence is the version number).

I ask because, in the current version 6.02, the section on life support requirements (H1.02.1) has a direct link to section Appendix AA.Q

edit 2: I may have found it. Is it the table in LQv.01.1 can anyone confirm ?


LQv is for the Luxury Qv system. Q.01 should spell out the requirements and link Table E4C, which tells you the capacity requirements for different types of personnel units.
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Buffrockjaw on Tue 26 Dec 2017 17:13

I have 6.02, I see the table E4C, but how does that give me the number of Qs I need ? It just isn't clicking for me.
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Pyrite on Tue 26 Dec 2017 20:14

The table you want is on the bottom left side of page 289. It lists how many HS each type of Q will support, so if you have a DD and are using Qa you generally need 2.

The rule that spells this out, and lists exceptions, is in H1.02.1, which should really be linked from the tech tree section. Importantly, you do not have to support A(rmor) systems.
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Cralis on Wed 27 Dec 2017 01:48

Buffrockjaw wrote:I have 6.02, I see the table E4C, but how does that give me the number of Qs I need ? It just isn't clicking for me.


Table E4C is for Qv (which is best for carrying PTU, Qt, and extra crew). My apologies, I should have realized you were talking about crew capacity and Q, not Qv.

Pyrite wrote:The table you want is on the bottom left side of page 289. It lists how many HS each type of Q will support, so if you have a DD and are using Qa you generally need 2.


The AA.Q tech tree (the table you are referring to) is exactly what he needs. Good call. :)

The rule that spells this out, and lists exceptions, is in H1.02.1, which should really be linked from the tech tree section. Importantly, you do not have to support A(rmor) systems.


I have an update note that says that we need to decide whether to put this information into AA.Q.01 or link back to H1.02.1... the biggest thing is that we have a requirement that we only put the information into one location. So what do you think? Should we have it all contained in Q.01 and then have a broader description for H1.02.1 that points to AA.Q.01 for the specifics?
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Buffrockjaw on Wed 27 Dec 2017 06:08

Pyrite wrote:The table you want is on the bottom left side of page 289. It lists how many HS each type of Q will support, so if you have a DD and are using Qa you generally need 2.

The rule that spells this out, and lists exceptions, is in H1.02.1, which should really be linked from the tech tree section. Importantly, you do not have to support A(rmor) systems.

Found it! Thanks everyone for helping!
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Pyrite on Wed 27 Dec 2017 18:43

So what do you think? Should we have it all contained in Q.01 and then have a broader description for H1.02.1 that points to AA.Q.01 for the specifics?


I knew where the relevant rule was because I struggled with questions about this a while back when my Solar Shipyard spreadsheet told me I only needed 3 Qa for my BS2 (which has 50 hullspaces). I suspected that I wasn't required to support the 5 armor on the battlestation, but I wanted to actually reference the rule that clarifies that.

The life support verbiage is honestly kind of a mess. It refers to the concept of 'support conditions' and the acronym 'SC', which are not clearly defined, and I have to make a lot of assumptions about what is meant when reading these sections. The very first rule, Q.01, refers to Table E4C, and I still don't know what the intention was there. As far as I can tell, that table should only be referenced from the Qv section. It also refers to 'crew points', which is a term that I otherwise only see in small craft.

Wait, now I see. F3.01 refers to Ship Crew Points (SC). This definitely needs to be referred to prominently in Q1 and this specific term needs to appear in H1.02.1 (which needs to reference F3.01), and the Q section in AA needs to start by saying something like 'Ship Crew Points (SC), which are needed in order to operate most large craft systems (see F3.01 and H1.02.1), must be supported by Q systems. Each generation of Q provides support for a listed number of HS and the SC who reside in and operate them.'

Anything regarding Crew Points here should probably be relegated to a later section (Q.04?) Which should detail how small craft Crew Points (CP) interact with Q systems, something which Q.01 completely fails to enlighten me on. Considering that supporting CP is not the primary intention of Q systems, this should absolutely not be the very first note one reads when trying to look up 'life support'.
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Cralis on Fri 29 Dec 2017 01:34

Pyrite wrote:The life support verbiage is honestly kind of a mess. It refers to the concept of 'support conditions' and the acronym 'SC', which are not clearly defined, and I have to make a lot of assumptions about what is meant when reading these sections.


Understood. Part of the issue was that we are swapping "Crew Point" (CP) to "Ship Crew" (SC) because players told us that "Crew Point" (CP) was too easily confused with "Pilot Crew" (PC). In either case, it has become clear that we should link [F3].

In all cases, if you find an abbreviation you should be able to find it in [A5]. You can find both "SC" and "PC" in that section. What we didn't do before was link to [F3] from there (that's an obvious oversight on our part).

The very first rule, Q.01, refers to Table E4C, and I still don't know what the intention was there. As far as I can tell, that table should only be referenced from the Qv section. It also refers to 'crew points', which is a term that I otherwise only see in small craft.

Wait, now I see. F3.01 refers to Ship Crew Points (SC).


Yeah... part of that change in terminology I was referencing. SSF was my first project of this scope and I've found that it's hard to make a change like that and get it 100% right the first time. Lesson learned.

This definitely needs to be referred to prominently in Q1 and this specific term needs to appear in H1.02.1 (which needs to reference F3.01), and the Q section in AA needs to start by saying something like 'Ship Crew Points (SC), which are needed in order to operate most large craft systems (see F3.01 and H1.02.1), must be supported by Q systems. Each generation of Q provides support for a listed number of HS and the SC who reside in and operate them.'


We are basically in agreement, though the introduction sounds more like what H1.02.1 should say than the introduction to section Q.

Anything regarding Crew Points here should probably be relegated to a later section (Q.04?) Which should detail how small craft Crew Points (CP) interact with Q systems, something which Q.01 completely fails to enlighten me on. Considering that supporting CP is not the primary intention of Q systems, this should absolutely not be the very first note one reads when trying to look up 'life support'.


And that's why we changed the nomenclature. "small craft crew points" are PC. :D

And yes, the entire point of Q is to support SC and PC. It cannot support any other type of personnel currently in the game. What I think is missing is a reaffirmation that the "cover all HS" aspect of life support is a direct result of "each HS requires 1 SC to crew it"
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Pyrite on Fri 29 Dec 2017 11:49

I strongly feel that the full term 'ship crew points' should appear at least once in the introduction to Q. I, and a lot of people I think, make heavy use of the find function when trying to digest rules in PDFs like this, and it's basically impossible to find anything useful with just the acronym SC.
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Re: How many Qs do I need ?

Postby Cralis on Fri 29 Dec 2017 19:51

Pyrite wrote:I strongly feel that the full term 'ship crew points' should appear at least once in the introduction to Q. I, and a lot of people I think, make heavy use of the find function when trying to digest rules in PDFs like this, and it's basically impossible to find anything useful with just the acronym SC.


That is a good point... we shouldn't consider the ability to search as "good enough." I will use your suggestion in the revamp of the Q introduction for the next version.
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