Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

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Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby mkeen on Mon 29 Jun 2020 13:53

Question and comments, please let me know if something I am missing

LRW
As far as I can tell a multiple squadron attack with LRW are not datalinked. So each attack is counted as a different salvo as far as point defense goes. So each squadron basically at short range can do 8-17 hits with LRW +2, short-range, +5 GB, base 1-10. The average will be 11.5 FRU = 11 hits per squadron. So a point defense ship with 10 Db will on average stop 12 hits per salvo.

SRW (fG)
Sprint missiles can be stopped with point defense at -2, so can I infer that fG (this is a sprint missile after all) can also be stopped by point defense.
So each squadron basically at short range can do 2-7 hits FRU with +2 fG, +1, short-range, base 1-10 Divide by 2. The average will be 4.25 FRU = 5 hits per squadron. So a point defense ship with 10 Db will on average stop 6 hits per salvo.

Can a Gba fire off both SRW and LRW at the same time? (If so 15 Dba on average will stop all fG and LRW hits)?

A large ship at SL6 carries A1 armor and S1 shields
Point Defense is Dzb with dme

If this is correct it would seem that if you use dedicated point defense ships, you can blunt the majority of what a Gunboat can do. (Basically create the same as a real-life Aegis cruiser)
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby StarTytalan on Fri 03 Jul 2020 02:25

I don’t know what the official answer is but one of the problems some of us play testing GSF had was both fighters and gunboats were balanced as ships (DD/CL) instead of being considered a extreme long range weapon which is what we felt they should have been treated as. I would think that this is a balance issue because as pre your example larger ships quickly became untouchable by fighters and gunboats. I’m trying to come up with a new tech tree kind of like the LRW modifier tree that would include tech to allow larger groupings.
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby Whitecold on Fri 03 Jul 2020 12:29

Your math is kinda off. Since you can only get a max roll of 6 against each inbound, you'll stop 6.6 of 11 hits, with 4.4 going through. The numbers of intercepts is always lower than the initial hits.
Please note that this is pretty hefty already, a missile ship would need some 20 launchers to generate the same amount of firepower, and you are investing 20HS into PD to get that kind of armament

Dedicated PD ships don't really work out, since they mostly defend themselves, and not their targets, so everything that doesn't carry around that kind of PD is still vulnerable. Also, nothing but PD currently deals significant damage to GBs early on.
Your 10 Db only get a BASV of 30, with some 20HtK of a DD mounting the 10 Db, which only nets a about 5 damage, and GB have 30DP, dealing 5 or more damage in return with their SRW included. You may be able to field 4 DDs per 3 Squadrons (Including the cost of the carrier). With GBs not being slowed by damage, and easier to repair, you can take out the DDs with kiting strategies, firing off their externals and returning to the carrier to reload. Because of this, I consider early GBs very much broken, given that these DDs would be highly specialized counter ships still failing at their job.
(if you want Dbz, you need a bigger, more expensive hull)
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby StarTytalan on Fri 03 Jul 2020 14:53

The use of escorts depends on the size if you limit them to DDs your partially right remember each firing at a target resets the point defenses and at tech 6 the point defenses can both defend and attack the small craft. Second for that Gunboat squadron your using up 16 hull spaces without considering life support. That 8 point defense units. Or 4 Rx’s
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby Whitecold on Fri 03 Jul 2020 15:44

StarTytalan wrote:The use of escorts depends on the size if you limit them to DDs your partially right remember each firing at a target resets the point defenses and at tech 6 the point defenses can both defend and attack the small craft. Second for that Gunboat squadron your using up 16 hull spaces without considering life support. That 8 point defense units. Or 4 Rx’s

The GB squadron only takes up 6 HS bay on a carrier (plus one launch bay per carrier)
Bigger ships don't help much, since the 10Db already intercept 10 shots stacked, so your defensive capabilities don't improve, and your offense roughly scales linearly as well. I calculated it with CAs as well, and you get pretty much the same level of inefficency.
What do you mean with Rx? R is generally the worst weapon to shoot at GBs. You need some 45! Rb launchers to match the damage output of 10 Db systems.
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby StarTytalan on Fri 03 Jul 2020 18:53

You need one launch bay, one squadron bay, and as you pointed out repairing them one repair bay. Also a mg for ammunition. Now even if you don’t consider the launch bay and the repair bay that still means that that one Gunboat squadron needs to be at the minimum equivalent to a capital missile launcher over the course of the entire combat. Since it takes time to travel and to rearm as well as the degradation do to damage all of that need to be considered. Remember a Gunboat is not a ship it’s the carrier’s weapon system.

The Rx was supposed to be Lcx. One capital laser has a damage modifier of 6+gen that 6 time a regular laser at only a little less than twice the size of a Lx. The LH is even worse. Capital and heavy weapons are massive and should do less damage not more. Basically ageist a ship armed with capital or huge weapons you only get one maybe two runs with attack craft. This gets worse is as ship get bigger. By tech 20 fighters and gunboats became useless as a weapon system. Building carriers is a waste of money as they have both a higher cost for size and a higher cost for maintenance.

My question to you is are Fighters/Gunboats Ships or a Carrier’s Weapon system?
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby Xveers on Sat 04 Jul 2020 03:49

Whitecold wrote:
Dedicated PD ships don't really work out, since they mostly defend themselves, and not their targets, so everything that doesn't carry around that kind of PD is still vulnerable. Also, nothing but PD currently deals significant damage to GBs early on.
Your 10 Db only get a BASV of 30, with some 20HtK of a DD mounting the 10 Db, which only nets a about 5 damage, and GB have 30DP, dealing 5 or more damage in return with their SRW included. You may be able to field 4 DDs per 3 Squadrons (Including the cost of the carrier). With GBs not being slowed by damage, and easier to repair, you can take out the DDs with kiting strategies, firing off their externals and returning to the carrier to reload. Because of this, I consider early GBs very much broken, given that these DDs would be highly specialized counter ships still failing at their job.
(if you want Dbz, you need a bigger, more expensive hull)


I'm gonna have to disagree with you to a degree based on practical experience. A cheap and cheerful FlaK CL (enclosed below) can dish out a surprising amount of damage to a single Gba squadron. Keep in mind that as per the turn order section B1, all large craft get to shoot at small craft before small craft fire. One single FlaK CL can very handily blunt a gunboat squadron's strike, as that minimum 5 damage will strip off 3 damage that a gunboat's LRW can deliver. If you take that FlaK CL provided and remove it's ability to provide defensive PD in its datagroup and make it an entirely anti-small craft ship, you can pack on another 5 Dbs, pushing it's BASV to 64 and it's base damage modifier to 7.

Note that this design IS slightly flawed, as per the rules it should have a weapon to count as a warship (which in this case feel free to strip off a Db and some shields and throw an Lb on, or if you have em cram on a Pg).

Anyhow, If this primitive FlaK boat can hit two incoming Gba squadrons, it's almost paid for itself for the engagement. More than that puts it into gravy territory. And if you want to make it even fancier, I've also provided the Mk2 (non war-emergency design) and then it's much bigger brother, the "Do you see that gunboat squadron? I don't want to see it anymore" Baltic-Class. The Baltic belches out a rather eye-watering 110 BASV all on its own at long rage, enough to make even a Gbb's incoming strike virtually ineffectual, and at the cost of having the gunboat squadron chopped in half.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FlaKboote-class CLb 8-XOb 48 HS/58 TS
[3] S1x6ZbHsQaQa(iaIa)(Ia)Dzbx6(IaIa)(Ia)Dzbx5(IaIa)Qb [4/2]
Trg:1 PV=44 Cost= 868/130.2 SL6 {ULTRA}
31 HTK S1x6 Dzbx11 Zbx1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FlaKboote Mk2-class CLb 8-(XOb) 51 HS / 62 TS
[3] S1x6ZbHsQbQbIas(Ia)(Ia)M2Dczax4(IaIa)(Ia)Dczax4(IaIa)QaLe [4/2]
Trg:3 Cost: 1017 / 152.6 SL7 {ULTRA}
29 HTK S1x6
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baltic-class BBb 18-XOb 109 HS/91 TS
[5] S1x18A1x21ZbHQiQiQi(IbIbIb)Dczax5YaM2(IbIbIb)Dczax5(IbIbIb)QbDczax5?a
(IbIbIb)Le [4/2]
Trg:3 Def-1 PV=112 Cost= 2023/303.5 SL7 {ULTRA}
76 HTK S1x18 A1x21 ?ax1 Lex1 Hx1 Yax1 Zbx1 Dzcax15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby StarTytalan on Sat 04 Jul 2020 12:52

I agree with you totally Xveers And if you want to keep the anti small craft abilities and increase its combat abilities just replace half the Dcx’s with Lcx’s yea you loose some of the anti Gb ability but gain in anti ship. The ideal of using a smaller ships as a escort in Starfire is stupid it points out your escorts. I’m with you on this.
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby Cralis on Sat 04 Jul 2020 16:51

It's been interesting watching this conversation. But I will point out one thing: the point of having smaller ships as escorts is that they are faster and can keep the squadrons in firing range longer, though in practice that it usually only for a few turns. But it does give them more shots at the squadrons.

A couple other points:

* Anything on a warship hull is considered a warship, whether or not it has any weapons mounted, unless it qualifies as something else (like a Q-Ship).

* You do not require any SQNM repair bays. Squadron bays have a small repair capacity of their own (see Table M10.03)

* Capital and heavy weapons are presumed to be have low-power firing capabilities with more shots at less damage to engage squadrons. That's why they do more BASV instead of less.

* And thank you WhiteCold for pointing out the max PD limits. That's an extremely important factor that is sometimes overlooked. Unlike previous versions of Starfire (prior to Ultra Starfire), point defense is not intended to block all incoming fire, so it doesn't becomes a MUST HAVE system. Don't get me wrong -- it makes a difference in your defense, but this makes it a lot easier to balance and means that NPRs without PD aren't going to get completely screwed on the battlefield.
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Re: Gunboat question for GBa (SL6 GB)

Postby Xveers on Sat 04 Jul 2020 22:49

As an addendum, the first time I rolled out the Baltic-class, it was a terrifying sight for my enemy. He sent in a small gunboat strike on what he thought were some defenseless battleships (since he'd only ever seen my Mk1 FlaK CLs) and two of them in datalink completely killed a Gba flight, and another Gba flight was so badly damaged it barely did any damage.

Admittedly better usage would have been for each one to engage a flight separately, but I fully admit the Captain wanted to see just what that much PD could do.
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