Useless Weapons

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Useless Weapons

Postby StarTytalan on Thu 02 Jul 2020 01:52

Is it me or does the G system “Sprint Missile” completely fail when compared to all other SRWs.
1) the Damage is not really any better than a Force, Laser. Or Energy Beam especially once you figure in the Later two defense skipping.
2) it’s subject to point defense which no other SRW is.
3) it has poorer to hit than all other SRW
4) It requires ammunition which no other SRWs do.
5) at tech 14 regular missiles to hits equal or nearly so to the Sprint Missile except at ranges of 0-2

I truly trying to see a up side to this weapon system.

On another note why can a DD have a turreted LC while it takes a LN for a turreted Kx. This makes no sense. A x50 modifier for Kinetic weapons is over 15 times the next largest modifier. Yes Kinetic have some advantages but they also have disadvantages. I would under stand a 9 modifier tho I still think 3 time the size is a little large. I think that a 6 modifier makes more sense. The system itself is already a 9+ space system with the current rule your ships has to have 450 hull spaces for the smallest kinetic weapon to be turreted. Even at a 9 modifier you need a minimum of 81 hull space ship.

Please explain the thought patterns for these weapons? As they stand I do not understand how they balance with the other weapon systems
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby Whitecold on Fri 03 Jul 2020 12:03

G starts out doing 2 damage, and it is a rather small system, so you can cram a few more into a hull than if you would be using other SRWs.
They have -2 to intercept, which defeats most early PD, and again you can get quite a few shots from a smaller ship.

Factoring all in, you can outdamage some other SRWs, but I agree there is not a great case for sprint missiles.

For turreting I agree it doesn't make much sense. Personally I'd like to see mounting restrictions playing more of a role, with capital weapons being restricted to being turreted on capital ships when they are researched. Above destroyers, mounting restrictions pretty much only apply to K currently, which is rather sad.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby StarTytalan on Fri 03 Jul 2020 14:56

For the Gs yea they do 2 damage but most beam weapons do the same at those ranges and both lasers and energy beams skip defenses at that.

I think you right that capital and heavy weapons should have a larger hull requirement possibly a *2 and *3 respectively but the Ks base requirement needs to be lowered badly.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby Xveers on Sat 04 Jul 2020 03:22

The K weapons are one that definitely look weak up front. Crappy arcs, low damage, and shorter range compared to other LRW.

While you're looking at fully turreted K weapons requiring a massive ship, broadside K require a FAR smaller ship (IIRC you can fit a Ke on a broadside heavy cruiser), and a broadside covers a larger portion of your fire arcs that you'll actually use (especially since you won't be firing the K weapons aft thanks to your drives).

I have personally found a few very nice, albeit a bit niche, uses for K weapons. The first is anti-small craft. They have some of the largest BASV base numbers out of any weapon in the game, and easily the best out of the starting LRWs. You need 3 Ra's to match a single Ka, and the Pta is 2/3rds what the Ka can put out. When you make the jump to capitals, it becomes comically brutal. A single Kca is over double what a Pta can do, and four times what an Rca can hope to do. They SHRED small craft.

Another advantage K weapons have is, believe it or not, planetary assault. If you're hitting a planet that's really fortified, then they'll probably have enough PD fire to triple up on every inbound you can throw at them. Which is where that -3 to-intercept modifier rolls in. Sure your range means you have to get in close, but that's par for the course for ANY planetary assault, and that -3 to intercept means that more of your shots are going to hit the planet, and less are going to get stopped on the way in. And if you choose to do a few more... dirty tricks (mobile bases, full-up bases assembled in-system) you can get pretty close to matching the other's LRW ranges.

Which actually ties in to the third advantage K has, and it's one that is almost entirely invisible unless you're playing a strategic game. "Infinite" ammo. Your magazine's only going to give you 20 Pt rounds, 60 Rs. And then you're dry until next month unless you've devoted more onboard space to magazines, or you have a collier around. K guns don't care. Just keep firing until you get tired of drawing smiley faces on the planet with your impact craters. It also means that on longer patrols, they're not going to be in a case of "one battle per month, that's all we can afford", which is doubly useful if you find yourself under gunboat strikes.

I'm not gonna lie. K's are definitely the weakest straight-up weapon, but they've got some sharp edges if you know what to do with them.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby StarTytalan on Sat 04 Jul 2020 12:58

But xveers do you feel these advantages justify having such a large ship requirement? Like I said a modifier of 9 would make sense seeing how that would allow BBS to have turreted Kx’s you still would not see any turreted Kcx’s Or Khx’s. I just think that the advantages you list don’t warrant the 50 modifier.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby Antares on Sat 04 Jul 2020 18:55

StarTytalan wrote:But xveers do you feel these advantages justify having such a large ship requirement? Like I said a modifier of 9 would make sense seeing how that would allow BBS to have turreted Kx’s you still would not see any turreted Kcx’s Or Khx’s. I just think that the advantages you list don’t warrant the 50 modifier.


I can see them as a nice "third" weapon system to have for the specific uses that Xveers notes, and a decent enough first SRW for use on smaller fast hulls, likely with J drives for swarm use. Let the SDF pay their maintenance fees for Home system defense and have them sit near WP's you want to defend. In a space battle, close in two or three turns to get to those short ranges to harass the enemy battle line... force the enemy to attack them instead of more valuable ships. Sure, the arcs stink... but then if all you are doing is closing with the enemy and mingling with his battle line, or sitting near a WP waiting for an enemy transit, you really don't need more than broadside arcs.

I presume that there is a reason that the number 50 is used and not 9... but I don't think it needs to be lower for balance. As with any weapon, use it to best effect if you have it. If you don't like to fight this way, choose another. Just my opinion FWIW.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby Xveers on Sat 04 Jul 2020 21:05

StarTytalan wrote:But xveers do you feel these advantages justify having such a large ship requirement? Like I said a modifier of 9 would make sense seeing how that would allow BBS to have turreted Kx’s you still would not see any turreted Kcx’s Or Khx’s. I just think that the advantages you list don’t warrant the 50 modifier.


Myself I accept I can't get full turret mounts on my warships; I find the broadside mounting to be more than enough for most uses. And the capital mounts for me "feel" right to have it as a spinal mount.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby Skarn on Sun 05 Jul 2020 09:51

StarTytalan wrote:4) It requires ammunition which no other SRWs do.

Take another look at X-Ray Lasers (Lj).

There's a whole series of trade-offs, but they do require ammo.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby StarTytalan on Sun 05 Jul 2020 11:11

Skarn wrote:
StarTytalan wrote:4) It requires ammunition which no other SRWs do.

Take another look at X-Ray Lasers (Lj).

There's a whole series of trade-offs, but they do require ammo.


Yea but X-Ray Lasers are the exception to the rule plus it has advantages to counter that disadvantage. One slightly longer range and higher damage and the major one it get a higher ROF without developing Rapid for the system.
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Re: Useless Weapons

Postby PracticalM on Mon 06 Jul 2020 07:10

Just for fun I tried one game where I only used Missiles, sprint missiles and x-ray lasers.

G generally doesn't perform as well as other SRW. The main reason for G is so you can get fG for small craft.
Gc has some potential but the early G branch is tough.

I do agree that K is a hard weapon to use. Side arc's mean you have to try to control the range but then have to turn away.
I've had good luck with K dividing my fleet and keeping them within 5-8 hexes from each other so it's a bit easier to keep the enemy in the arc. If the enemy goes after one fleet the other works into the blindspot. It is not easy to pull off.
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