Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sat 09 Dec 2017 21:52

Cralis wrote:What you've posted is an example of why we have taken so much time with the rules in later editions: it doesn't precisely state how you should handle the situation, so you found a solution on your own interpretation. Why is that a problem?

Two reasons. First, a different SM may have a different interpretation so the game win't play the same for everyone. Second, more importantly, YOU may not interprate it the same way every time.

Inconsistencies like this don't bother everyone, but they bother a LOT if players. And they make fair competitions difficult.
I've sent ya the image of the rules. Does this site have the use of 'Sticky' threads for Errata and such?
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby Cralis on Sat 09 Dec 2017 23:56

VoidStalker_WoE wrote:I've sent ya the image of the rules. Does this site have the use of 'Sticky' threads for Errata and such?


Why did you send me an image of the rules? I have a hundred pre-publication edits of that version.
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 03:16

VoidStalker_WoE wrote:
Cralis wrote:What you've posted is an example of why we have taken so much time with the rules in later editions: it doesn't precisely state how you should handle the situation, so you found a solution on your own interpretation. Why is that a problem?

Two reasons. First, a different SM may have a different interpretation so the game win't play the same for everyone. Second, more importantly, YOU may not interprate it the same way every time.

Inconsistencies like this don't bother everyone, but they bother a LOT if players. And they make fair competitions difficult.
I've sent ya the image of the rules. Does this site have the use of 'Sticky' threads for Errata and such?
Unless I'm missing something, and I suppose that that could be the case, I really don't see where there can be any other interpretation.

[7.613] 66% militancy or higher = war with next highest militancy. Efreet, which has a 92% militancy rating, and thus is automatically at war with the race within it's system with the next highest militancy, which Dijinn, at 83% militancy rating, is it. No rolls, no interpretation, just the rules.

[7.614] If a state of war exists within a system, the alliance rolls change slightly. If one race issues a "shoot on sight" order, the other will automatically ally with the player race. So again, no rolls, no interpretations, just the rules.

[7.614] If two planets are at war, they will never ally with each other! So, by the rules, Efreet (92%), is automatically at war with Dijinn (83%), and one will automatically ally with the player if the other attacks them.

[7.62 NOTE] Check in order of descending militancy, for a "shoot on sight order"...
[7.621] If one race attacks the player race, immediately roll to see if any of the other races come to the aid of the ship fired upon. Check exactly as in [7.62]...

All of this is perfectly straightforward, no confusion has yet entered the picture, and then...

[14.43 EXAMPLE] The terran player enters system 4211. System 4211 has 4 inhabited planets:

Planet #1: Ambrosia, militancy = 46%
Planet #2: Efreet, militancy = 92%
Planet #3: Dijinn, militancy = 83%
Planet #4: Acron, militancy = 12 %

The terran player rolls percentage dice for Ambrosia, and scores a 56. As Ambrosia will shoot on sight on a roll of 1-46, the score of 56 means Ambrosia is feeling kinda mellow, and holds off on the destruction of the terran players ships. So far, so good, but next up;
The terran player rolls a 37 for Efreet, and since they, what with being such fine fellows that they are, will attack on any roll less than 93, promptly open fire on the hapless terran players ships. Feeling kinda put upon, he then...
The terran player rolls to see if the Ambrosians will come to his aid, seeing as how they politely held fire in the first place, but rolls a 51, and so the Ambrosians calmly sit back, knocking a few more tasty brews back, and enjoy the show.
Next, the Terran player rolls to see if the Dijinn will come to his aid, and with any roll from 1-83, they will: He rolls an 84, so the Dijinn also kick back, and watch the drama. He then turns to his last hope of support, Acron.
The Terran player rolls a 27, and thus Acron too, sits this one out.

The Efreesians quickly smash the terran ships, and then turn to see who will join their "anti-Terran" crusade. For this type of check, each planet's militancy is doubled, so Ambrosia, having greatly enjoyed the show, and their tasty brews, now has an 86% chance to join the Efreet, and the Efreet roll of 72 quickly secures the Ambrosians assistance; next he looks to the Dijinn, and what with them now having a 166% militancy, they join up handily, regardless of past animosity between their mighty peoples, and, caught up in the moment,scream "DEATH TO THE McCLOUDS,..er, TERRANS", and last, and least, the Efreesians turn at last to the quiet little world of the pacific Acronians. With just a 12% militancy under normal circumstances, they now feel twice as likely to have a little bloodlust, but this still only adds up to a 24% chance to join the fun, but when the victory flushed Efreesians ask them to join up on a roll of 27, the silly little Acronians just demure. Wanting to be sure that the naughty little spoilsports won't get any ideas, the Efreesians then check to see if they can count on the pesky Arconians not to hit them from behind while the other three decide what to do about the "Terran Invaders". For this kinda check, a planets militancy is halved, leaving the normally passive Acronians with just a 6% chance to just chill out, but when the Efreesians ask politely if they will at least not interfere with the newly formed "central powers" war plans, the Acronians, having perhaps intercepted the final terran broadcast, having something to do with a fellow named Arthur, King of the Britons (whoever they may be), and another fellow named the Black Knight, decide against all reason, to shout, "Have at you!!!" and actually attack the forces of the other races...
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 03:20

So, in the example above, how many rules did the author break?

First, rolls start with the highest militancy, not numeric order.
Second, since Efreet and Dijinn are in a war, if Efreet attacks the terrans, the Dijinn will ally with the Terrans, no roll required. So not only will the Dijinn NOT have a 166% chance of joining, they will NEVER ALLY WITH THE EFREET!

After that, all seems good...
Other than the fact that Ambrosia has not an 86% chance, but rather a 92% chance, didn't catch the math the first time through, lol.
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 03:32

So my question is, does the forum have a way to place a "Sticky" thread up at the top, and just place this kinda thing up there, so all the new players can see it and have their question answered? These Rules Clarifications threads are to identify areas of confusion, and hopefully generate solutions. My hope is that the question raised here, can be used to create errata, that can be collected and added to such a 'sticky' thread.
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby Cralis on Sun 10 Dec 2017 06:14

VoidStalker_WoE wrote:So my question is, does the forum have a way to place a "Sticky" thread up at the top, and just place this kinda thing up there, so all the new players can see it and have their question answered? These Rules Clarifications threads are to identify areas of confusion, and hopefully generate solutions. My hope is that the question raised here, can be used to create errata, that can be collected and added to such a 'sticky' thread.


Sticky topics do exist (and we use them elsewhere in the forum), but it's not available (as an option) to standard forum members. But it could be arranged. If you want to propose an exact errata, we'll verify it, and then we can put up a sticky topic for that.
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 06:23

Now your talking!

Ok, so using the PDF, I'm going to write out the whole example [14.43] in a word doc, and that will make editing it very much easier, and I'll be back in a bit with the first try...
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 07:01

Example: The Terran Survey Service sends a survey squadron of light cruisers into system 42-11. System 42-11 has four inhabited planets:
Planet #1: Ambrosia, Militancy = 46%
Planet #2: Efreet, Militancy = 92%
Planet #3: Dijinn, Militancy = 83%
Planet #4: Acron, Militancy = 12%
The Terran squadron consists of 3 DataLinked cruisers, OUTREACH, DISCOVERY, and EXPLORER and emerges from a warp point within 17 hexes of a heavy cruiser squadron from Efreet.

The dynamics of system 42-11: In order of descending militancy, the planets would be:
Planet #2: the Efreet, have a 92% militancy, and as this meets the criteria of [7.613], this then means that the Efreesians are in a state of war with the next most militant planet in the system, in this case the inhabitants of planet #3: the Dijinn, with a militancy of 83%, after that we then have planet #1: the Ambrosians, with their 46% militancy, and last planet #4: the Acronians, with a 12% militancy.

The Terran rolls percentage dice for Efreet and gets a 37, as the Efreesians militancy dictates a “shoot on sight” order be issued on any roll less than 93, the Efreesians instantly open fire. Now we need to resolve how the other three races react to this turn of events. As the Dijinn are at war with the Efreesians, the Dijinn automatically come to the aid of the Terran ships. The Terran now roles to see if the next most militant planet will come to his aid, he rolls a 51, and so the Ambrosians remain neutral, lastly, the Terran player checks if the Acronian people will aid the Terrans, and his roll of 27 exceeds the willingness of the Acronian peoples interest in entering into conflict, and so they remain neutral as well.

The system is TL5, so the three Terran cruisers are quickly smashed by Primary and Force beam fire from the Efreesian cruisers. The player who controlled…

Getting tired, and will have to finish this later. :cry:

Anyway, I think the important thing is going to be to take the steps to break this down, rule by rule, and roll by roll, until we cover all the bases.
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Sun 10 Dec 2017 07:28

Actually, getting up and hitting the total gym perked me up enough that I may be able to finish this now. :lol:

Here:

Example: The Terran Survey Service sends a survey squadron of light cruisers into system 42-11. System 42-11 has four inhabited planets:

Planet #1: Ambrosia, Militancy = 46%
Planet #2: Efreet, Militancy = 92%
Planet #3: Dijinn, Militancy = 83%
Planet #4: Acron, Militancy = 12%

The Terran squadron consists of 3 DataLinked cruisers, OUTREACH, DISCOVERY, and EXPLORER and emerges from a warp point within 17 hexes of a heavy cruiser squadron from Efreet.

The dynamics of system 42-11: In order of descending militancy, the planets would be:
Planet #2: the Efreet, have a 92% militancy, and as this meets the criteria of [7.613], this then means that the Efreesians are is a state of war with the next most militant planet in the system, in this case the inhabitants of planet #3: the Dijinn, with a militancy of 83%, after that we then have planet #1: the Ambrosians, with their 46% militancy, and last planet #4: the Acronians, with a 12% militancy.

The Terran rolls percentage dice for Efreet and gets a 37, as the Efreesians militancy dictates a “shoot on sight” order be issued on any roll less than 93, the Efreesians instantly open fire. Now we need to resolve how the other three races react to this turn of events. As the Dijinn are at war with the Efreesians, the Dijinn automatically come to the aid of the Terran ships. The Terran now roles to see if the next most militant planet will come to his aid, he rolls a 51, and so the Ambrosians remain neutral, lastly, the Terran player checks if the Acronian people will aid the Terrans, and his roll of 27 exceeds the willingness of the Acronian peoples interest in entering into conflict, and so they remain neutral as well.

The system is TL5, so the three Terran cruisers are quickly smashed by Primary and Force beam fire from the Efreesian cruisers. Assuming that the Efreesians defeat both the Terrans and the Dijinn, then the player who controlled the Efreesians now checks the remaining planets to see if they will join his “Anti-Terran” alliance, as per [14.42] all remaining races roll against double their militancy to see if they join, And so he first checks Ambrosia, whose militancy is doubled from 46 to 92%, and rolls a 72, so Ambrosia and her fleet immediately join. But Acron’s militancy is now only 24%, and the Efreesians roll a 27, so Acron refuses to join.

The Acronyms must now either submit to disarmament or fight, so he divides Acron’s militancy by 2, giving a value of 06%, and rolls against it --- but this time he rolls very low: 03%, and the Acronyms choose to fight rather than submit.


Well, that little burst of energy is gone now, so nap time again for me...
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Re: Rules Clarification [7.6 & 14.43] Original

Postby VoidStalker_WoE on Fri 15 Dec 2017 11:23

Obviously, the above is not exactly what one would want to use to improve SF3's example [14.43], but I do feel that it may be good enough to serve as a basis for continuing discussion, so that something better can be arrived at. God knows, I'm the last person that you would want to be attempting to write official rules errata, as I struggle with simple things most of the time, but I hope to be able to be part of the process.

So, looking at the issues, and reading up on the actual rules, along with the example that needs fixed, is the above something that can get us there with work, or should it be scrapped and something new and better used?

Thoughts?
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