Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

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Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Antares on Sat 17 Jul 2021 17:03

Gunboat - ESf 12HS - 194.0 MCr
[3] A Hs Mgs (Ja) Qa (Ja) Ga×2 (Ja) [9/3]

This ship generally detunes the engines to close at speed 10 until reaching combat range of the Ga's.


Planetary Surveyor / Auxiliary Gunboat - ESf 12 HS (AC) - 221.2 MCr (+ cost of shuttles)
[3] A Hs Xa (Bsa)×2 (Ja) Mgs (Ja) Qa (Ja) Ga [9/3]

This ship is designed for two purposes. The ship carries two shuttles and provides five survey points per StMP surveying planetary bodies. It is also fast enough and armed so that it can supplement a fleet going into battle, or handle an enemy who appears while performing its primary mission. The shuttles can be used for crew recovery, and small magazine can supply other ships as a quasi-mini collier if it arrives after battle has taken place.


Missile Destroyer - DD 30 HS - 328.0 MCr
[2] S×2 A×3 Hs (Bsa) Mgs (Ica) Ra Ya Qa (Ica) (Ica) Ra Qa (Ica) Ra [4/4]

This class would provide a first line of long-range support for the attacking gunboats. The class uses commercial engines which provide more strategic mobility, but allow it to keep pace with other ships in the fleet... at the cost of tactical speed.
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Thradin on Tue 20 Jul 2021 16:57

I'm not a big fan of your missile destroyer. With the low tactical speed, it will be difficult to fulfill the primary mission of supporting the Gunboats.

If you have a space battle (not a WP assault), will your Gunboats stay near the Destroyers until just before missile range or are they charging off immediately? If they charge off immediately, the enemy fleet can open the range from your Destroyers and deal with your fleet in pieces. If you hold the Gunboats until just before missile range, the enemy fleet dictates if/when the battle will be fought.

Just my thoughts.

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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Cralis on Wed 21 Jul 2021 13:44

Antares wrote:Gunboat - ESf 12HS - 194.0 MCr
[3] A Hs Mgs (Ja) Qa (Ja) Ga×2 (Ja) [9/3]

This ship generally detunes the engines to close at speed 10 until reaching combat range of the Ga's.


Why do you have Hs? H is no longer required by SSF, as it has 1 month's worth of maintenance storage internally (as per H1.02.2). You could have a full Mg, or better, an additional passive defense. Each of the Ga will have 10 munitions internally (Appendix AA7 introduction)

Planetary Surveyor / Auxiliary Gunboat - ESf 12 HS (AC) - 221.2 MCr (+ cost of shuttles)
[3] A Hs Xa (Bsa)×2 (Ja) Mgs (Ja) Qa (Ja) Ga [9/3]


Same for this one. Since it's a surveyor, I'd dump the Mgs and have a full H to carry spare maintenance so it can keep on-board maintenance while exploring in new systems without needing to return for maintenance deliveries.

This ship is designed for two purposes. The ship carries two shuttles and provides five survey points per StMP surveying planetary bodies. It is also fast enough and armed so that it can supplement a fleet going into battle, or handle an enemy who appears while performing its primary mission. The shuttles can be used for crew recovery, and small magazine can supply other ships as a quasi-mini collier if it arrives after battle has taken place.


Hmmmm. Simply having a magazine doesn't make your ship a collier, though you can offload on-board munitions to another unit. But if you want a collier, I'd recommend building a freighter with H and Mg to fill that duty AND carry extra maintenance for the whole survey fleet. If you do that than you could consider removing the extra H altogether on this ship (since the extra maintenance is carried by the freighter) and add an additional passive, at least if you want it to be a more capable combat ship.

Missile Destroyer - DD 30 HS - 328.0 MCr
[2] S×2 A×3 Hs (Bsa) Mgs (Ica) Ra Ya Qa (Ica) (Ica) Ra Qa (Ica) Ra [4/4]


In this design I'd do the opposite. Dump the Hs and use a full Mg. Especially if it is supported the gunboat class above and you strip the Mgs from that unit. Then you could use this to offload extra munitions if you don't have a collier around.

Thought admittedly, if I have a combat fleet without a collier, then I've got a fleet that was defeated and is retreating.

This class would provide a first line of long-range support for the attacking gunboats. The class uses commercial engines which provide more strategic mobility, but allow it to keep pace with other ships in the fleet... at the cost of tactical speed.


It can keep pace strategically, and better, but not tactically. Experiment with this... I think you'll find that the tactical speed is worth more than the strategic speed. Especially early in your empire when you're essentially only a few star systems in size.

In my opinion, having high strategic speeds means a lot more to battle line units (BB and larger) than it does for smaller units, although I have seen a lot of players use them successfully on CA and BC as well. Smaller units have a high enough speed that their Safe Cruising Speed is never the limit, the speed of the larger units they are supporting is always the limit.
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby PracticalM on Mon 26 Jul 2021 15:17

I have to agree with Cralis and Thradin.

In the early game strategic speed isn't that valuable because you are defending a smaller empire.
Once you have more systems and are spread out then you can worry about strategic speed.
And the solution can be Tugs or @ equipped ships.

Early Ic ships are good for WP assaults but it depends on if you are facing strong defenses or not.
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Antares on Thu 05 Aug 2021 18:59

Thradin wrote:If you have a space battle (not a WP assault), will your Gunboats stay near the Destroyers until just before missile range or are they charging off immediately?


They would actually deploy somewhat behind the DD's, and once the enemy closes range, they would charge. The enemy the chooses whether to fight, if they open the range again, the gunboats return and don't go off on their own.
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Antares on Thu 05 Aug 2021 19:09

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I don't think I disagree with much of anything that was said.

I do like the idea of switching from Hs/Mgs to either H or Mg depending on the design, and will rethink my use of Ic's.

I planned the tactics as mentioned in my note above when designing the ships... and now that I think about it, J-drives make more sense in terms of coordination of the ships and control of combat range.
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Lomn on Fri 20 Aug 2021 10:03

Cralis wrote:Why do you have Hs? H is no longer required by SSF, as it has 1 month's worth of maintenance storage internally (as per H1.02.2). You could have a full Mg, or better, an additional passive defense. Each of the Ga will have 10 munitions internally (Appendix AA7 introduction)
Hs Mgs is 2 HTK in 1 hull space, which is pretty good at EL1. And there aren't any fractional-HS passives at this point to choose instead.

Mgs is, I think, 6/12/8 extra volleys of fire for the gunboat / surveyor / DD, respectively, so the first question of "is this sufficient?" is "is this ship likely to still be firing 16 / 22 / 18 turns into combat?" Particularly with the magazines forward, it's "is this ship likely to be firing without itself being fired on?"
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Re: Starting ship designs EL1 (J, R/G tech) - Solar

Postby Cralis on Sun 22 Aug 2021 13:43

Lomn wrote:Hs Mgs is 2 HTK in 1 hull space, which is pretty good at EL1. And there aren't any fractional-HS passives at this point to choose instead.


Ahhh yeah I suppose... but that's exactly why fractional systems have been restricted. In fact, we've been tempted to make them 0 damage (meaning it just passes right through) to prevent this kind of exploit.

Mgs is, I think, 6/12/8 extra volleys of fire for the gunboat / surveyor / DD, respectively, so the first question of "is this sufficient?" is "is this ship likely to still be firing 16 / 22 / 18 turns into combat?" Particularly with the magazines forward, it's "is this ship likely to be firing without itself being fired on?"


That's absolutely the question when evaluating whether to add magazines. In fact, that was why Marvin originally added internal magazines to all weapons, because magazines added so many rounds that went unused, especially in smaller ships.
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