More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

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More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby StarTytalan on Thu 23 Jul 2020 23:26

Okay I got two different answers from the same person in FB so I’m asking for clarification. I ask about table G4.01 and gave the following example. At first I was told I had it right but later in the same post I was told by the same person that I had it wrong. Please clarify this for me.

Keith Higdon do you see what I’m talking about? This is what it looks like to me. I’m using Fb’s for my examples
1) SRW: +1 LRW +3
Standard configuration
2) SRW: Q LRW +3
Internal life support
3) SRW: +1 LRW Q
External life support
4) SRW Q & Y LRW +3
Internal life & sensor
Recon
5) SRW: +1 LRW Q & Y
External Life & sensor
6) SRW: Y LRW +3
Internal sensor
7) SRW: +1/+4 “SinFire”
External fG
8 ) SRW: Q SRW +3 “SinFire”
Internal Q External fG
9) SRW: Q & Y SRW: +3 “SinFire”
Internal Q & Y Recon External fG
10) SRW: Y SRW: +3 “SinFire”
Internal Y External fG

I think I got all the cases if there a value in the internal SRW it can be any of the following: ast weapon, F, E, L, Pg, Fp, Ep, Lp. Now to me this makes sense as the fG has to replace LRWs but it was later said that the fG did not use the LRW modifier but instead used the SRW modifier. If that is the case why would you ever use the fG? It’s single shot and does less damage as well requires a closer attack run? Please explain. I’ve been hearing all about weapon balances but no one wan5 to actually explain the thought processes.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby krenshala on Fri 24 Jul 2020 20:11

Sprint Missles (G) are short range weapons (SRW), even when its the smallcraft version of the weapon. That is why the fG uses the SRW modifier; its a short ranged weapon after all.

As for why you would use G, it is harder to intercept with point defense (D) than missles (R) or plasma torpedos (Pt), as it is supposed to be faster than a 'normal' missile.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby Cralis on Fri 24 Jul 2020 21:22

Why are you labeling those "SRW" and "LRW"?

Q is not an SRW. Neither is Y. And they aren't LRW either. I think you are confusing "SRW" with "Internal Ordnance" and "LRW" with "External Ordnance" -- they are NOT the same thing.

SRW and LRW are weapon categories. Internal and External ordnance are mounting locations on squadrons.

And you keep saying "Fb" when I think you mean "FQb" ... FQ is a fighter squadron.

What is "SinFire" ?

And what are the +# values for?

fG is an expendable SRW, it is not an LRW or a replacement for LRW. In fact, after the first SL or two you probably won't use them again. It's an early squadron weapon.

And you do realize that LRW (R, Pt, K) are expendable munitions and one-shot too, right? (yes, as a squadron LRW, K is a one-shot munition in this case... see G4.01 second sentence and Table G4.01 for K)
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby StarTytalan on Sat 25 Jul 2020 10:38

Cralis wrote:Why are you labeling those "SRW" and "LRW"?

Q is not an SRW. Neither is Y. And they aren't LRW either. I think you are confusing "SRW" with "Internal Ordnance" and "LRW" with "External Ordnance" -- they are NOT the same thing.



SRW and LRW are weapon categories. Internal and External ordnance are mounting locations on squadrons.

And you keep saying "Fb" when I think you mean "FQb" ... FQ is a fighter squadron.

What is "SinFire" ?

And what are the +# values for?

fG is an expendable SRW, it is not an LRW or a replacement for LRW. In fact, after the first SL or two you probably won't use them again. It's an early squadron weapon.

And you do realize that LRW (R, Pt, K) are expendable munitions and one-shot too, right? (yes, as a squadron LRW, K is a one-shot munition in this case... see G4.01 second sentence and Table G4.01 for K)

No Q and Y are not weapons but they do replace weapons.

SinFire means single fire as in you can only fire them once.

The “+#” refers to the SRW and LWR modifiers

Apparently SSF does not want G “Sprint Mode Missile “ because despite the claim that all weapons are balanced it is inferior to all other SRWs in every way.
Yes I know that the LRW are expendable munitions just like the fGs

So like you yourself just said fG are a useless weapon I still don’t understand why you bother to claim every weapon is balanced at some point and include a weapon that you have made obsolete from the start
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby krenshala on Sat 25 Jul 2020 11:14

StarTytalan wrote:No Q and Y are not weapons but they do replace weapons.

SinFire means single fire as in you can only fire them once.

Then why you have them listed as SRW on your list at the top of this thread? And why do you have them listed as single fire (see your number 7 and 8 entries above)?

StarTytalan wrote:The “+#” refers to the SRW and LWR modifiers [/q]
Y and Q don't get a SRW or LRW modifier, but you have them listed above.

StarTytalan wrote:Apparently SSF does not want G “Sprint Mode Missile “ because despite the claim that all weapons are balanced it is inferior to all other SRWs in every way.
Yes I know that the LRW are expendable munitions just like the fGs

So like you yourself just said fG are a useless weapon I still don’t understand why you bother to claim every weapon is balanced at some point and include a weapon that you have made obsolete from the start

If you feel like fG is a waste of space, don't use it. I feel it has its time and place, depending on what you have available and are trying to accomplish. Same for any weapon (or system, for that matter) in the game.

None of this is worth getting into a fight over. Discussions that could be termed arguments happen all the time about the rules, but its rare to see posts from someone that sound like they will leave and take their toys with them if they don't get their way ...
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby StarTytalan on Sat 25 Jul 2020 11:40

Seems to me that Sprint Missiles in any form are inferior to all other weapons in the game.

I’m not arguing I’m trying to understand a rule set. Sorry if wanting to understand the game is arguing to you. There was much less confusion with Ultra Star Fire. Basically we have Sprint Missiles in the game for no reason despite the claim that every weapon at some SL or situation is useful. With fG having to deal with point defense you can’t even say that you trade a closer attack run for increased damage Because SRW do half damage.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby krenshala on Sun 26 Jul 2020 10:19

Are you intentionally ignoring half of what people post in their replies? Yes, sprint missiles are shorter ranged; however, they are harder to stop with point defense.

If you were not trying to have an argument, why did you spend half a dozen posts arguing a point (internal/external versus SRW/LRW) that was quite explicitly wrong if you had actually looked at the relevant table in the rules which was ointed out to you? This time, you ignored half of what I said about sprint missiles to focus on "but its short ranged!"

If you aren't actually trying to be argumentative then I apologize, but most of your posts are coming across as someone looking for a fight that couldn't be bothered to read more than half of what is presented.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby Cralis on Sun 26 Jul 2020 10:29

StarTytalan wrote:No Q and Y are not weapons but they do replace weapons.


That is one way to look at it -- the way the rules look at it is that they fit a location (or a slot) that can have either Q, Y, or a weapon. Depending upon what you are trying to do, you may never want to put a weapon there. Making Recon squadrons for example (FQ with Q&Y in the internal ordnance location).

SinFire means single fire as in you can only fire them once.


The rules term for this is "expendable".

The “+#” refers to the SRW and LWR modifiers


Ok I thought so, but I wasn't sure because the modifiers are going to be much different than what you have there, depending upon a number of factors. In retrospect it looks like maybe you are only applying the first number from the range chart on G7.03 and G7.04 and not the modifiers underneath the chart.

Apparently SSF does not want G “Sprint Mode Missile “ because despite the claim that all weapons are balanced it is inferior to all other SRWs in every way.


The issue is that it can't be balanced in the same way and keep it the way we want the weapon to be. We either have to make it too powerful or underpowered. Since R is already an extremely powerful weapon...probably the gold standard...we choose to make G a little underpowered. That is why it is being removed as a choice for beginning players and instead will be part of the "missile" progression as a branch from R.

Yes I know that the LRW are expendable munitions just like the fGs

So like you yourself just said fG are a useless weapon I still don’t understand why you bother to claim every weapon is balanced at some point and include a weapon that you have made obsolete from the start


I did not say that fG was useless. Specifically, I said

cralis wrote: I feel it has its time and place, depending on what you have available and are trying to accomplish. Same for any weapon (or system, for that matter) in the game.


When you first develop FQ, fG is one of the few weapons you have available to use. It's really great during that period of the game.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby StarTytalan on Wed 29 Jul 2020 02:29

krenshala wrote:Are you intentionally ignoring half of what people post in their replies? Yes, sprint missiles are shorter ranged; however, they are harder to stop with point defense.

If you were not trying to have an argument, why did you spend half a dozen posts arguing a point (internal/external versus SRW/LRW) that was quite explicitly wrong if you had actually looked at the relevant table in the rules which was ointed out to you? This time, you ignored half of what I said about sprint missiles to focus on "but its short ranged!"

If you aren't actually trying to be argumentative then I apologize, but most of your posts are coming across as someone looking for a fight that couldn't be bothered to read more than half of what is presented.


Because despite what you may think the rules are not clear which has been pointed out by more than me. As for what you said about sprint missiles I’ll repost a quote from below your post “ The issue is that it can't be balanced in the same way and keep it the way we want the weapon to be. We either have to make it too powerful or underpowered. Since R is already an extremely powerful weapon...probably the gold standard...we choose to make G a little underpowered. That is why it is being removed as a choice for beginning players and instead will be part of the "missile" progression as a branch from R.”.

Yes sprint mode missile are useless they are underpowered by design it seems.
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Re: More Fighter/Gunboat confusion

Postby PracticalM on Wed 29 Jul 2020 09:18

Let's see, some opinions on the internet or the entire spreadsheets that balanced all the weapons.

Gather your data and show it in a convincing way.
Build some ships, with equal costs. (Extra points for attempting to balance R&D costs as well)
Run simulations at different ranges.
Be sure to compare differences between faster ships and slower ships.
Do a few WP assaults as well.

Get actual data and we can have a discussion on facts not opinions.
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